Ep. 63: College Tour: Princeton University, Gilbert Collins (Part 1)

In this episode of our college tour I get to speak with Gilbert Collins from Princeton University.  As the Director of Global Health at Princeton, Gilbert teaches us the leadership lessons he's learned that led him to this position. Stay tuned for part 2 next week!

• Lessons from being a Peace Corp Director
• How to lead people remotely
• How to navigate cross-cultural communication
• Ways to approach decision making

Gilbert Collins began working at the Princeton University Center for Health and Wellbeing in 2016 and he oversees several of the University’s global health programs. Collins previously served as the Princeton School of Public and International Affairs' Director of Graduate Student Life where he directed academic and co-curricular programs, including the Junior Summer Institute, and offered academic advising and career counseling to students preparing for careers in public service. Before coming to Princeton, Collins spent eight years as the U.S. Peace Corps Country Director in Namibia and Associate Director in Botswana, focusing on HIV/AIDS interventions and other development activities. Prior to that, he served as the Evaluation and Planning Team Leader for the Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance at the U.S. Agency for International Development, providing strategic guidance for relief and development activities in health, water/sanitation, nutrition, psycho-social support, shelter, and other sectors for seven years.

Collins received his bachelor’s degree in Government from Harvard University, a master's degree in Public Policy and International Affairs from Princeton University, and a master's degree in Higher Education from Penn State University. Born in Germany, he grew up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and speaks French, German, Spanish, and Mandarin Chinese.

Chapters

• 13:41 How to Lead a Team That is Spread Out
• 20:53 How to Navigate Cross-Cultural Communication
• 29:29 Ways to Approach Decision Making

Transcript

Kyla Cofer: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Leadership School podcast. I'm your host, leadership and self-care coach, Kyla Cofer. Here at the Leadership School, you'll hear leaders from around the world. Sharing their stories and expertise on how to lead with balance and integrity. Our goal teach you how to be an extraordinary leader.

Welcome back leaders. Thanks so much for joining me for our very last episode of the College Tour. This has been really, really fun for me to have conversations with, uh, faculty and staff from these college campuses around the country. I hope we have more of these in the future, but this has just been really great series.

I hope you've enjoyed it like I have. Today, we are talking with my old friend, Gilbert Collins. Gilbert and I go way back I knew him and his wife went years and years and years ago, and so it was really fun to reconnect with him. He is [00:01:00] now the director of Global Health at Princeton University, and so he talked a lot about just his experience and how he led up to his current role, and it was just really fascinating hearing his own leadership roles and what he has learned through being the director of the Peace Corps, which he did before he came onto Princeton, and then how those leadership skills that he learned there of applying to what he is doing now.

And some ways that you could be involved with Princeton, um, and some programs that they have for learning and getting into public policy, so he's really heavily involved in that. It's a fascinating conversation. Gilbert has really taught me a lot, and I'm so excited to introduce him to you. So please enjoy me to welcome Gilbert Collins.

Gilbert, thank you so much for coming to the podcast though with me. It's, and it's really nice to see you. We both lived in DC at the same time and were part of the same community in DC and so it was before we, any of us had kids and all that. And [00:02:00] so, um, it's just nice to see you and 

Gilbert Collins: reconnect. Thank you.

Yeah, likewise. I'm excited to, um, to pitch into your podcast. 

Kyla Cofer: Awesome. Okay. So, um, let's get started and I'd love if you could just introduce yourself and tell us about who you are and what you do and some fun things about yourself, and we'll just let it roll from there. 

Gilbert Collins: Sure. So my name is Gilbert Collins and right now I work at Princeton University in New Jersey in the position of Director of Global Health Programs, where I support students and faculty and other researchers

who have an interest in global health and health policy. Before coming to Princeton, nine years ago, I lived overseas in Africa directing Peace Corps programs in Namibia and Botswana. And before that I worked in humanitarian relief with US government based out of Washington, but traveling around the world to respond to different kinds of disasters.

Um, whenever they happen on an emergency [00:03:00] basis. 

Kyla Cofer: Oh wow. Okay. Tell me more about that. Traveling around the world with different kinds of disasters. I didn't know about this or maybe I did, but I wanna hear more . 

Gilbert Collins: Absolutely. So, um, the first job I got out of grad school was with the US Agency for International Development, um, US A I D, which is part of our, our federal government based in Washington.

And that office is charged with responding to emergencies around the world on behalf of the American people, to save lives and alleviate suffering. And so there, for most of my time, I was the leader of our evaluation and planning team. So doing strategic planning of how the US can respond to disasters.

And then once they do happen, um, how can we monitor and evaluate what we're doing to make sure that we're helping the best number of people most efficiently and being responsible stewards of the resources that we. So that was a day job. But whenever a big emergency [00:04:00] would happen, you could either be deployed to the field to help respond, or you could be asked to serve in a coordination role on a response management team in Washington at our headquarters.

And so with that position, I went to the field many times, including to Central America to do hurricane relief. Um, so in El Salvador, in Costa Rica, and in Honduras. To Kosovo for a month or two doing, uh, communications reconstruction after the war there to Sudan during the conflict in Darfur, to work with different relief agencies on some of our relief priorities.

Um, also to Congo, to Central Asia, near Afghanistan, um, middle East, and a few other places as well. 

Kyla Cofer: Okay, so I have about 10,000 questions right now. , um, first, what was your graduate degree in? Because you said you did that after your graduate program. What was your degree in? 

Gilbert Collins: Right, so as an [00:05:00] undergrad I studied political science and government, and then went straight from there to grad school.

Also here at Princeton where I am now, and I studied international development and public policy. . 

Kyla Cofer: Okay. So that makes sense that how you progressed into working for US aid. I'm curious, like what caused you to be interested in doing relief? Like how, what's that progression of joining a relief program?

Gilbert Collins: Yeah, that's a good question. So I'll answer by taking a step back into what I wanted to do in general, and that relates to why I chose to study what I did. Um, So actually, I'll take it a lot farther back even than what you're asking. I was born in Germany, so I mentioned that because my parents were working there for about three years.

My dad was directing, um, Boy Scout programs for American military and diplomat families. and so I have no recollection of that. They moved to Milwaukee, Wisconsin when I was six months old. But the reason I mentioned that is the idea of working overseas or living overseas was [00:06:00] always something that was in the back of my mind, and it wasn't something exotic.

It was always somethin that you could choose to do if you wanted to. Cause my own parents did that. So I grew up with an appreciation and love for other cultures. And other peoples. And so when I was young, I studied, um, among other things, lots of foreign languages. So I went to a grade school, they taught everything in German.

I then in middle school, started studying French. Then in high school, took German and French and added Spanish. And then in college did more of the same, studied abroad in Germany for a semester. So in thinking about what I wanted to do, I knew that I wanted a career, um, that was internationally focused, but also one where you could help people. From a young age

uh, my parents always instilled in my sisters and me, um, the importance of service and helping others. So my mom, her whole career as a social worker, my father, um, taught in an alternative school for kids that were having trouble in the regular school system. But [00:07:00] they were always exceptionally giving, um, of their time.

And so I wanted do the same. I wanted to find some sort of work we could help people, but also since I liked international, um, work, do it in that kind of context. . And so that is why I ultimately came to study international development at Princeton. So how, how you can help other countries in their economic growth, in their environmental, um, you know, wellness in their health systems, uh, in many ways like urban policy and so on.

And so when it came time to start applying for jobs, I ultimately wasn't that particular about what I would do, so I was looking for different development and relief agencies, places like the Red Cross or nonprofits like Care or Mercy Corps or World Vision. I also applied to government agencies like the State Department or like USAID.

And honestly at the end of the day, the only people that even gave [00:08:00] me an interview were those US government positions. So the other places it may be that they had people that were, um, much more talented or qualified than I was at that early time. So that's fine. Um, but kind of the agency kind of made decisions for me cuz.

You, you can only get what who wants to take you, right? So that's how I ended up there. I did have ultimately a couple of choices in government positions that were offered to me. Um, but I ended up picking the one in that humanitarian relieff office at USAID 

Kyla Cofer: okay, so then that ended up leading you from there, uh, into the Peace Corps when you were in Botswana and Namibia.

And I actually went and visited you and your family in Botswana and I'd forgotten about that, but I visited you guys for a few days there. That was a really wonderful experience and it was so nice to see you guys there. So you did that and then you're, you moved over into the Global health program at Princeton.

Gilbert Collins: Right. And I think there's a couple things I could say about that too. So, um, going back to U S C I D, I worked there for [00:09:00] about seven years. Responding to disasters, and that was a great, a great position, having a very clear and meaningful impact on people around the world. . What happened to me personally is I got married, uh, while working in Washington and after that point, the idea of pulling up and going to work on some disaster for a month or two on very, very short notice was a little less attractive.

That that's more fun, at least for me if you're like single or whatever. Um, sure Than if you're married. Obviously there's plenty of married people who engage in humanitarian relief work, and that's perfectly fine. But my wife and I thought it'd be neat to maybe be overseas together. So that's why we looked for jobs where we could, um, live somewhere overseas.

And in exploring that, I learned about options with the Peace Corps. So I, I, yeah, accepted that offer and left for that. I would say one interesting aspect of that transition was the job in Washington was a permanent job. It was a long-term civil service job, so it was like an open-ended job. Whereas [00:10:00] the Peace Corps position was a term limited position only for five years max normally.

Um, and so there was some trepidation about leaving what was a secure job, long-term permanent job, which I really, really enjoyed for a time limited job. And at the end of that you'll be unemployed. So that was an interesting, uh, interesting debate internally about if you do that or not. But we thought it would be a great adventure and we didn't want to

to be too afraid, right? To take a step that could be really rewarding, you know, to leave what you have in order for something that may or may not be better. But we just decided to take the plunge, honestly, and, um, and left that permit job and left our home in DC and move overseas. 

Kyla Cofer: That's a big decision and, and I, I'm glad you brought that up because making decisions like that, and I think as we grow as leaders, like that's, We're learning how to make decisions like that for ourselves and for the other people and like work through hard decisions.[00:11:00] 

It's a really good skill to have, but it's really challenging when you're weighing those things. So it sounds like to me, the, the adventure, the opportunity, um, the po potential growth, all of that weighed more heavily to you than the security of staying in the same job. 

Gilbert Collins: That's right. Yeah. I, I, I very much agree with that.

It's like people have different goals in life, right? Um, and so in, in my wife, uh, my wife and my's case, we really wanted to explore some of the world. and that involved taking on a, a degree of risk in knowing that after five years we may be in a very different, or maybe disadvantageous economic position might be out of a job and having to scrounge for something.

Cuz who knows what the labor market will be then. And there is also risk of failure. Maybe it won't work out, you know, like you're hoping it will work out, but maybe it won't. But we just didn't want to live our lives in that fear. You know, we didn't wanna make decisions that were just conservative based on just being afraid of failure.

So we decided to go ahead and take a risk. And [00:12:00] candidly, that risk paid off very greatly, um, with the Peace Corps, because after a year or two of a very, very steep learning curve, we eventually got the hang of things and things got so well that the Peace Corps suggested that I applied for a promotion to a full country director position.

My original position in Africa was as an associate director and they, they recognized that they thought I had a lot of skill and talent to offer as a leader for the Peace Corps. Um, so I actually was promoted to being a country director in the neighboring country to Botswana of Namibia. Um, so in charge of all the Peace Corps volunteers and about 30 staff and in charge of diplomatic relations with the government and meeting weekly with the US Ambassador and her, her close advisors and all this, when I was just in my mid thirties, the typical Peace Corps director is, um, frequently professionals in their forties, fifties, sixties, or retired executives or other things like that.

And so for me, being that in that leadership role at that relatively young age was [00:13:00] pretty unique and it was a good honor. Um, but it was exciting and it was kind of, again, part of the payoff for having taken that risk and leaving the, a great job in DC for this adventure overseas. 

Kyla Cofer: Wow. And that's exactly why I wanted to talk with you.

And I wanna get into talking about Princeton and your role at Princeton too, cuz this is still part of our college series. But, and I know you're not a faculty professor at Princeton, but you've had such an enormous amount of leadership experience all around the world. Literally. You speak how many languages, it's like five languages, , that you speak and you have so much experience and expertise to that you bring to everything that you do.

It's really, really valuable and um, I'm really grateful that you're sharing it. And so I'm curious, um, before we launch into talking more about your current role, When you're in the Peace Corps and leading people, were you just leading Peace Corps, uh, volunteers who were in Namibia or were you working with them in a broader area, but also either way, [00:14:00] what's it look like to lead people who are so spread out?

Gilbert Collins: Right, so that's a good question. I'll focus on the time, the four years that I spent in Namibia as the country director. So I'd say from a leadership perspective, again, there are kind of these four areas that you're engaging in. One is, and probably most importantly, is being a, a leader of the Peace Corps development programs taking place, um, in the country led by the magnificent and tireless work of the Peace Corps Volunteers.

Um, 

Kyla Cofer: so that's like deciding what programs you actually are working on and what new ones to start implementing and things like that. 

Gilbert Collins: It, it does involve that. Okay. So the host country determines the areas in which they invite you to work in. So another area that I do is collaborate with the host, government officials, ministers, even the president, um, to decide where they'd like Peace Corps volunteers engaging their country.

Cause you don't do anything without their express permission um, and welcome . And so with that, the Peace Corps [00:15:00] headquarters recruits American volunteers on their side who are willing to come over to your country, who know what the programs in Namibia are and are excited about doing those things. And in Namibia's programs happen to be, um, when I was there, education.

So some people are teaching math or English or science or um, life skills. Some people are focusing on health. So the prevalence of hiv aids is overwhelming in Southern Africa, including Namibia. and then other people were working on, um, economic development. There's a lot of joblessness and low incomes and so we wanna do a lot to create new jobs for people there and more incomes for families.

Um, so that's what we were doing. And so leading these over a hundred Peace Corp volunteers scattered around a country twice the size of California, um, was definitely the most important thing, like setting a standard, encouraging them, making sure they're well resourced, well trained, and most importantly, again, making sure everybody's safe and healthy.

That's really the most important thing and everybody gets home [00:16:00] safely. So that was one, one big aspect of my job. Another is leading a staff team. So making all that happen is the predominantly locally hired and wonderfully dedicated, um, Namibian staff. That includes trainers, that includes program supervisors, that includes administrative officers, um, it includes medical staff safety and security staff, IT staff, drivers, everybody.

Um, from the biggest to the smallest who make everything run there. So ultimately you're the top of the supervisory pyramids. So I supervise some people directly. Others have their own supervisors who report to me as well. Um, so in that sense it's an office. So there are things that happen. You wanna set standards of fairness, but you know, there are ups and downs in any sort of like office managerial context.

Then there's the whole aspect of headquarters field relations, which is not sure, uh, I'm not sure if you've gotten that in your podcast series or not, and I won't dwell too much on that. But there's a whole [00:17:00] school of, um, lessons to be learned about organizations that have a headquarters based somewhere and field offices based in other places, and what leadership looks like from both sides in that context.

So leaders at headquarters can think, oh, we're the big bosses here. We'll set the tone. We'll tell those people in the field what to. The people in the field, leaders there think "I know what's happening in my country or in my location. Like we're on the ground. We see what the reality is and what you people at headquarters think is, does not align perhaps with the reality that we live in here in the field."

And so how to navigate, uh, those relations is also a fascinating thing that I was neck deep in for my entire time, um, living in Africa. 

Kyla Cofer: So it's a lot of communication skills and people management skills. 

Gilbert Collins: Definitely interpersonal skill plays a great role. One aspect of leadership and communication in this kind of context involves cross-cultural communication.

The idea that [00:18:00] what many Americans learn or the, the context we grow up in, we learn certain norms for communicating, right? How we talk to people that are our peers, who are our subordinates. Who are our superiors, right? Um, and it turns out that not every culture has the same norms, even within the states. Not every subculture in our country has the same norm communication.

Um, but when you go overseas, you may find that, that the way that we approach things here is not the same way people do there. So yeah, for example, this is a very minor, silly thing, but when I first arrived in Africa, I would get a phone call at my office desk. So I'd pick up the phone. It was someone from outside my agency, um, someone that had business before us.

And I'd pick up the phone, I'd say hello, and the person on the other one would say, yes, hello. And this was irritating to me because in America, You identify yourself, right? [00:19:00] And I don't know who you are. So I'd say, yes, who is this? And then they'd, they'd identify themselves and they'd ask me how I was doing and such.

And I'm thinking, why are you, why are we talking about this? I don't even really know who you are now. I know your name, but you know how I'm doing, how my family is doing is, is quite irrelevant to whatever we're gonna be talking about. Um, and over time I came to understand that establishing a baseline in day-to-day conversations of, you know, how you're doing, how's your family doing this kind of thing was very important locally, culturally before you went on to any sort of business.

Right? Right. Um, so I had to learn that and I did learn that. And so by the end of my time in Africa, my desk phone might ring, um, and I'd pick it up and say hello and they'd say, might say Yes, hello. I'd say, oh, how are you? And they'd say, oh, yes, I'm fine. I'm fine. How are you doing? I'd say, I'm doing very well.

Thank you. And then they may even ask it a second time just for good measure. Yes. [00:20:00] Okay. You're sure you're well? You're well. Yes, I am. I'm very well. Thank you. And okay. I, I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say, okay. I just wait. I'm like, okay. At some point they're going to say, what they like to say, and then they might say, yes.

Yes. So I was calling because it's like your advert and blah, blah, blah, and then you kind of move from there. So, yeah, just communication is definitely, I think, important and understanding how, um, different cultures communicate in different ways and being able to, to change according and adapt toward where you 

Kyla Cofer: are.

yeah. Understanding their values and methods. And I'm over here like chuckling a little bit, hearing your story, but also like it, there's the joy in it. This is something fun to learn about these people and, and learn how can I do this? And so leading people from um, different ways of thinking, it adds that extra challenge because now you're their boss, especially the people in your office who are Namibian and you're their boss.

And so it's learning how do I communicate these things in a cultural way that they understand, but also, , how do I get things [00:21:00] done in a way that I know that they can move forward? So what is it, how, how are you balancing your American way of like, let's get to it and the other way of it will probably still get done.

It will get done, it will just get done differently. Right. 

Gilbert Collins: So the staff that work for the US government at embassies or at US agency offices overseas, again, exceptionally talented people, uh, I can't say enough wonderful things about the staff who worked with me and for me. They tend to adapt rather quickly to like the American style of doing things.

Cause embassies do kind of more operate on kind of a US pace. You could say. There's like constant communication every day with headquarters in Washington and even for your locally hired staff in the Peace Corps office. They are also communicating every single day with their counterparts in Washington DC as well.

Um, and so a Peace Corps office does tend to kind of move quickly. Meetings happen generally on time and people are, are pretty efficient. So [00:22:00] I'd say in that way, oftentimes, generally staff that work there, um, understand like their kind of wacko American, uh, counterparts, ways of, you know, moving forward and sometimes being a little less, you know, Having less concern for some of the, the pleasantries that I was discussing earlier, you know, and accepting that it's not because we're all rude, you know, uh, it's just they, they adapt.

Uh, they're very understanding. At the same time though, that is one of the things for New Peace Corps volunteers, not staff volunteers, American volunteers that come to Africa, they do spend two to three months, um, at the outset before they even start any kind of learning language, but also learning cultural norms so that um, they can, to the extent possible, hit the ground running once they do get to their sites.

Not making some of those mistakes that I might have when I first got there. Right? Understanding like, this is how this is gonna work with communication. This is respect for your elders here. [00:23:00] This is how to keep your mouth shut at the right times because you are young and you are junior and you respect people who are older even if you don't agree with them.

Um, things like that. Peace Corps invests a lot of time and effort, orienting newly arrived, volunteer trainees to, uh, before they start their work. That's 

Kyla Cofer: really helpful and everybody will accomplish a lot more if they come from an understanding to begin with. So I started this podcast because I wanted to learn and grow in my leadership journey, and I have been so incredibly inspired by the guests and the conversations, and especially recently with this college tour, I've really learned so much.

So once the interview ends, I actually keep the conversation going because I have found that sometimes the richest part of the conversation is when we feel like the interview's over and we can just kind of have a relaxed, more casual conversation. . Also, if you've noticed, if you've been following this podcast for some time, I used to ask every guest two questions.

What does Integrity mean to them and what does [00:24:00] balance look like to them? Well, I haven't stopped asking those questions. We're just putting those over on our Patreon page. So go check it out at patreon.com/leadership school, and for $6 and 50 cents a month, you can support this podcast. It takes a lot to produce every single episode.

Honestly, I could use a little bit of support. So anything that you're able to contribute would really mean a lot to me and would able to help me to continue to bring these high caliber guests in to have conversations on what does it look like to be an extraordinary leader, and how do we practically.

Do that. So those conversations are continuing over at patreon.com/leadershipschool where I'm asking guests some extra questions, some bonus questions, and you'll get some bonus content over there. So be sure to go check it out. Thanks so much for your support and thanks for so much for subscribing, listening and sharing this podcast.

It really does mean a lot, and I'm so honored to show up here in your podcast. When you were doing [00:25:00] these programs in the Peace Corps, just Peace Corps in general, are these Peace Corps programs or are they volunteers who come into already operating programs in the country just to support them? 

Gilbert Collins: So in those three areas, I mentioned earlier that we were active in, in Namibia education, health and economic development.

Um, how it would work if you were in education, most typically you would be assigned to a school somewhere in the country and you would normally teach some classes in whatever area it is mathematics science. Again, English, uh, life skills, other areas as well. But importantly, the point isn't just to fill a position, it's to build local capacity.

Cuz Peace Corps is sensitive to the idea that people are taking jobs away from others. So you always have a counterpart, at least one counterpart, if not more, um, who you're collaborating with at that same school. You may be sharing expertise cause Peace Corps volunteers that work in education universally have experience in that field before arriving.

They may not always have been school teachers. They do have training in [00:26:00] tutoring or other areas before they're even accepted to the Peace Corps. But the idea being they are building capacity of local counterparts as well. So as they teach, they may co-teach or, you know, partner teaching, um, and also run co-curricular programs like life skills clubs after school or sports clubs, or HIV/AIDS clubs or other things like that.

But still all within the context of Namibian Schooling system. So you are teaching to Namibia's curriculum. You're not teaching your own Peace Corps curriculum or anything like that. You are working in one of their schools with their Ministry of Education's blessing. For health volunteers, you could be assigned to a few places, maybe a local clinic, a local hospital, a regional hospital.

If so, you're at the direction of the leadership in that facility. They are your boss, and they are telling you and giving you direction, um, on what you do on a day-to-day basis. So you may be helping support health campaigns, vaccination campaigns, HIV/AIDS testing campaigns, treatment, uh, [00:27:00] care, various things.

But again, it's at the direction of Ministry of Health or whoever's running the center where you're based. Um, some are also based with nonprofits. There may be a nonprofit that's doing some sort of HIV/AIDS work or some sort of work on malaria or tuberculosis. And if so, you're partnering on whatever they are doing.

But again, it's their programs, you're walking alongside them, but also are building capacity with the idea, whenever possible to work yourself out of a job so that you've built enough local capacity at that host that they can kind of do that work without you. Um, hopefully once you have left, you've got a legacy of, you know, the support and training that you've given.

But in many cases, you won't be needed, or at least a follow-up person won't be needed when you're gone. Um, same for our economic people. Again, they partner with their host org, build capacity and hopefully work their way out of a job. 

Kyla Cofer: So I'm hearing as your role as a director involved too, a lot of collaboration, probably a lot of listening.

I'm making an assumption here, just a lot of listening, what the needs were [00:28:00] and how can you collaborate in a way that benefits, um, and not a way that harms and, and then leading the people to be able to do that successfully. 

Gilbert Collins: Absolutely. Like I mentioned earlier, what drove me into this whole world was wanting to serve people to the extent possible.

And so living in a, a country like Namibia, which is, um, vast again, it's, it's a really pretty big country, but also, um, very sparse. It only has a little over 2 million people, and again, twice as California. So it's the second least densely populated company in the world behind Mongolia. Um, but there are just so many areas in which they were very eager for support from Peace Corps volunteers.

So it's honestly a negotiation of, with our, um, limited capacity, ultimately we can't send infinite number of volunteers, like with a limited number of people that we have. How can we make the biggest benefit and the biggest impact, uh, on behalf of namibians? Um, and geographically, again, spaced all over this [00:29:00] vast, vast country

like what are the, the lowest hanging fruits or the most meaningful fruits, um, you know, that can be tackled in order to just have a, the most impact. And so negotiating between different programs. If you have a hundred volunteers who could come, okay, we'll put 20 volunteers here and 30 here and 20 here, and things like that.

But it's all for the good. Again, it's sure, it's it's tough decision decisions to make, but they're, they're good decisions cuz you do know that no matter where you allocate your resources, you're gonna have a positive impact. 

Kyla Cofer: Well, that was my next question for you is about Dec decision making. So what's something that we can help our listeners here who are really like wanting to advance, um, and just have something to support their leadership journey.

How do you approach like decision making when you have so many things that you're trying to coordinate, so many decisions to be made, um, and trying to make the best possible ones? Like what does that look like when you are there on the field or in your current job, do you have a method of decision making that you've found that has worked for you, um, that you could [00:30:00] spell out?

I mean, sometimes we just do our decisions. We don't really acknowledge, like we don't really understand. But you're a crazy intelligent, so I'm sure that you've worked this out, but I'm curious if you could share a little bit about that. Like what does that look like in making, um, your process of making some of those decisions?

Gilbert Collins: Sure. So, um, I know there's a whole literature, um, on this that I'm not even personally that familiar with, but I can tell you just practically speaking, kind of four approaches I might take in your, in your, in your experience. Yeah. Decision making. Sure. Um, so one approach could be a complete decentralization or delegation of decision making to, um, to lower levels that are more intimately involved in an issue.

So, for example, um, if in the Peace Corps you have four volunteers, And 10 sites that wanna volunteer, um, in health. So I have my associate director for health program. I could choose to delegate that decision to them with their expertise on each of those sites, what the best place is in their opinion. Cuz I [00:31:00] personally will not have a strong opinion about that.

Or even if I do, I may respect them to the point that I'm gonna delegate this decision to you. So I guess more broadly, when possible and applicable, just delegating decisions to people, um, at a more working level, both to empower them and to show that you respect them and their judgment. Now granted, as a manager, you wanna make sure that you are also willing to abide by whatever decision they make.

Um, and that you, that there isn't some factor that they may not be aware of, that they should take into consideration. Right?

Kyla Cofer: But, and then to back them up and just support them through the process. 

Gilbert Collins: Definitely. and honestly, most decisions for me professionally are like this, you know, can be delegated and don't have to involve me.

So the vast majority of things that I do even here at Princeton University, um, would fall into that category. 

Kyla Cofer: So it sounds like really learning who you can delegate to, like who are the appropriate people for this? Um, and empowering people. It's not just delegating and like passing tasks off. It's empowering people and supporting them to make, um, [00:32:00] decisions that are in their best interests since they... 

Gilbert Collins: That's right.

They, yeah. And 

given that you made the, that decision to delegate to them, as you said earlier, also backing them up and supporting them, if there ever is any turbulence down the road on that. So then another thing, If I'm making a decision, um, there are a few ways where that may play out. So one way could be, um, some decisions that require one person to make them.

Cuz there may be, uh, powerful arguments on more than one side. And so doing your best to bring a group together to discuss, um, pros and cons, gather information, people can advocate for different positions. And then at the end of that, have a leader make a decision. Like if, if there's just a dispute of some kind that can't easily be rectified, um, a central person might make a decision.

That's one way. Another outcome is having a more democratic process, um, slash consensus process where, okay, we bring it to a group, we advocate vigorously for different positions, [00:33:00] and a group takes a decision on it. Like what ultimately in the room is a consensus on this. Um, and if a vote if it's appropriate for that scenario, then one could go that direction too.

Like, okay, our team, what do we vote on doing if we felt that that was appropriate? So those two were like, say bring the group and the leader makes a decision versus bring a group and there's either consensus or you take some sort of democratic vote. Might depend on the nature of the, the decision. Um, it's hard for me to think in the moment right now of like differences.

I do know that I've, I've used both approaches depending on the issue and it might be, uh, related to my own judgment on the importance of the decision and whether or not one way or another is, is the best approach. I'll just lay that out there though. Anyway, we've used both approaches. . And then another one, kind of an extreme case, and this would come up sometimes, um, in, in my humanitarian [00:34:00] work, would just be an approach by which a leader just has to gather information rather quickly and make and be very, very directive in nature.

Right? And just say, you will do this. You will do that. Where there isn't really time for a longer deliberative process, this isn't to say in the absence of information, the leader, even in that last scenario, can gather all the information they want. But at the end, it's not necessarily when you've taken people's information that they haven't shared into account.

It may be that this is gonna happen like this and then this is gonna happen like this. That's often around like say emergencies or things where time is really, really of the essence. Um, like maybe somebody is really sick or somebody's been the victim of a violent crime in some cases, there just have to be quick decisions made, um, taking people's input, but being, again, very directive of what's gonna happen.

And so in the Peace Corps, there were times when that was also the case, you know, where [00:35:00] one of those unfortunate things happened and we needed to resolve or to, to respond, um, efficiently and quickly. 

Kyla Cofer: Well, I notice that strong, effective, ethical leaders are able to do this with confidence because you believe in what you're doing.

You know you have the education, you have the resources, you have the information in front of you, and you just know that somebody has to step up. You can't like hide in that moment. You can't go somebody else figure it out. Like that's not leadership. The leader steps up and goes, okay, I'm here. We're gonna solve this.

I'm gonna take charge and we're gonna work together. And like I'm directing people. I mean, that's what you're doing in leadership. You're telling people where to go and what to do, and making those hard decisions and then acknowledging that sometime like the consequences of that is gonna fall on you.

Mm-hmm. 

Gilbert Collins: Absolutely. Like coming back to health and safety and the Peace Corps. Um, as I said earlier, peace Corps volunteers do tremendous work helping their host countries, um, in a lot of different ways. But in all seriousness, uh, the most important thing is health and [00:36:00] safety of these Peace Corps Volunteers. And so when there's a threat to that, that's where it is truly all hands on deck.

That's why Peace Corps needs directors, that in that moment will really stand up, take the reins, take charge, and proactively, um, and assertively deal with whatever the situation is. . And so in the years or months that proceed, emergencies like that, when you are being more, um, listening and collaborative and delegating with your staff, you're building their trust as well.

So they know who you are as a person and as a leader in general. . And then when it comes time to have a moment where, um, the, the stuff is hitting the fan as it were, or we really need to respond quickly, and you're being much more directive, they can still have confidence in your leadership. Um, because they know you're not the kind of person that never listens or you, you know, you always setting them aside.

Um, they, they know you are, but they do trust your judgment as well. And they understand that this particular situation is an emergency and we really need to act quickly and decisively to, to [00:37:00] address this. 

Kyla Cofer: So taking on that role as the leader and having built that trust, is there fear in there for you, like in making those decisions?

Um, and with that, is there, I mean, is this a skill that you learned through education and through experience or, um, is this a personality trait? Like this is a, this is something that comes naturally to you? I can confidently leave people in a positive way. So I guess that's like two questions. Is this, uh, is this, did this come naturally to you or was it a learned behavior?

And then part two is, is do you have fear in making those decisions? Um, or, or is it just all confidence? 

Gilbert Collins: I would say in my experience, I have grown a lot in leadership over the years, partly from having a lot of good and bad leadership demonstrated to me, um, in positions that I have had. So I mentioned out of grad school, I started with the US government in humanitarian relief.

Um, and [00:38:00] that was a very unique environment that often would have very sharp, um, leadership demands on whoever was in charge. If you're trying to respond to people trapped under rubble of an earthquake, for example, um, and get supplies to them and get, you know, rescuers to them. , you have to act pretty a assertively, but you also have to take very good care to collect the right information, right?

Because you can't act quickly and find out that you did the wrong thing, went to the wrong place, brought the wrong supplies, things like that. Um, so there's this big tension between listening and acting that happens there. And I've had, uh, the blessing of some very good managers in that job. But I also saw some things that were, I think, less good.

And no matter good or bad, you're always learning. And so what I brought overseas when I went there was the, the fruit of a lot of those lessons. So I would say, um, a lot of my approach to leadership has been based on observation and learning over time. Um, I think it's difficult to have an innate sense [00:39:00] of application of leadership in all contexts without having seen a lot.

Right. Seen how other people handled things and how that went well, or how it didn't go well, right? Or yourself, even as subordinate, how you did things that either went well or you learned because you made a mistake and you shouldn't have done it like that with your boss. Um, so I guess put me in the camp of people who think that experience

is very valuable experience as a subordinate and as a, a supervisor, manager and leader, um, is important in crafting your own approach to, to leadership. I also don't have a whole lot of fear generally in leadership, partly because, um, decisions have to be made, I guess, ultimately. Right. And so, um, I'm comfortable making them.

I do like to gather information. I like to empower staff. I like to make things as collaborative as possible when possible in dec decision making. But when it comes time to actually lead or, you know, advance our team's objectives or make [00:40:00] some, some difficult calls, I don't usually have a lot of fear there. And that, um, whether that experience or not, I don't, or just innate?

Uh, I don't know. That's a good question. Yeah.

Kyla Cofer: I think it's both. Maybe. I mean, you, because you mentioned earlier you did have some fear about going and making that decision to go to Africa, but in practicing that, I mean, it's even in those personal decisions as we're practicing, like making that decision of, I'm, I'm gonna

do what I think is best for me and my family and best for our goals and our vision. And our values and making that decision regardless. Like the more you practice that, the less fear you have in making some bigger decisions. So, mm-hmm. , I think it's pretty great what incredible story you have and really I'm just honored to be your friend and, um, and really appreciate you sharing all of that with me and our podcast.

So thank you so much, Gilbert. 

Gilbert Collins: Yes. Thank you Kyla, for having me. It's been a pleasure. 

Kyla Cofer: Hey, thank you so much for listening. If you've liked what you heard and you want some more tools and resources to help you on your journey, go check out [00:41:00] kyla cofer.com/free stuff.