Ep. 70: Recovering from Executive Loneliness with Guest Nick Jonsson

There's a phrase that says "It's lonely at the top." Today, we are talking with Nick Jonsson as he shares just how lonely he got and how he recovered from the burnout the loneliness created.  We will talk about 

• how he ended up at his bottom
• how he recovered
• and how he is maintaining his recovery

*Trigger warning* In this episode we briefly discuss substance abuse and suicide. If you or someone you know is struggling with suicide please reach out for help. You are not alone and there is hope and help available. 

In the US you can reach out to:

• 988-suicide hotline and crisis support
• 741741- crisis text line, text "START" to begin a text conversation

Nick Jonsson is the co-founder and Managing Director of one of Asia’s premiere networking organizations, Executives’ Global Network (EGN) Singapore, Malaysia & Indonesia — a caring peer group network providing hundreds of executives and business owners a safe haven to share their challenges, receive support, and learn from each other.

His passion for mental health awareness through his very lived life experiences paved the way for Nick to author his first #1 international bestselling book, published in April 2021—”Executive Loneliness: The 5 Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, Stress, Anxiety and Depression in the Modern Business World“.

Nick has been featured in more than 20 newspapers and magazines including a 4-page feature in the Business Times and a full page in the Straits Times and on Money FM Radio, as well as on TV including Channel News Asia (CNA), and is passionate about bringing the discussion to the forefront.

Nick won the Entrepreneurs 100 Award in 2021: Singapore’s Emerging Entrepreneurs of the year and was also named one of Asia Pacific’s 50 Leading Lights on World Kindness Day in 2021.

Nick has worked across Asia, Australia and Europe representing major international firms as well as having served as the Vice-Chairman of the Nordic Chamber of Commerce and the Vice Chairman of the Direct Selling Committee Vietnam. 

Outside of working hours Nick is active in charitable and fundraising organizations to give back and support his local community, along with volunteering and fundraising for the Samaritans (SOS) – a suicide prevention hotline in Singapore.

Chapters

• 18:29 Take Stock
• 21:10 Ask for Help
• 26:27 Take Action
• 30:38 Nurture Healthy Relationships
• 36:20 Find Your Purpose

Transcript

Kyla Cofer: 0:05

Welcome to the Leadership School podcast. I'm your host, leadership and self-care coach, Kyla Cofer. Here at the Leadership School, you'll hear leaders from around the world sharing their stories and expertise on how to lead with balance and integrity. Our goal teach you how to be an extraordinary leader. Welcome back Leaders. Today I am here with Nick Jonsson. Nick is the author of the International Bestseller "Executive Loneliness, the Five Pathways to Overcoming Isolation, Stress, Anxiety, and Depression in the Modern Business World." And Nick tells us his story of being in an executive leadership role, how he hit rock bottom and then brought himself back up again. It's a really, really powerful story of overcoming. And understanding what it looks like to be in an executive leadership role and feeling really lonely and how you work through that and how you deal with it. I do want to note for mental health safety purposes that this episode does address issues of suicide, so please be aware of that. Thank you all so much for listening to the Leadership School podcast. Please join me to welcome Nick Jonsson. Well Nick, thanks so much for joining me. I'm just really excited and I was telling you just a second ago, and I'll tell our listeners that I read your book in advance of our conversation and I actually really enjoy interviewing authors because they've really have like thought through a process and the system and have developed this story. And so it's really, really makes for a fun interview. But I am excited about talking to you because as I was reading your book, I was like, man, I don't know how we're gonna get this done in one conversation. I need, and I just told you this, I need a whole book club. I wanna like talk about this over and over and over. So I'm really, really excited to have you here.

Nick Jonsson: 1:52

Super exciting to be here, Kyla. And actually having written the book myself, you know, and continued these conversations since the book was out two years ago and I'm still not getting tired and every day I'm learning and, and, and coming up with new ideas around that so that it all develops and grows. So I'm so excited to be with you today as well.

Kyla Cofer: 2:11

Oh, that's so awesome. Yeah. Well, thank you. So Nick, why don't you just jump in and tell us about yourself, and I wanna hear about your story, and then we'll kind of go into some of how we can help our listeners. Sure.

Nick Jonsson: 2:21

Well, I was born in Sweden. And then I was university educated in Australia and after that I had been working in Southeast Asia, mainly Indonesia, Vietnam, Singapore, and Thailand the last 20 years. And I started in the corporate world. I worked my way up India, working mainly in the fashion industry and the medical industry. Two quite different industries, but my last corporate job was with a company called International SRS, a medical company managing 70 hospitals and medical clinics in Indonesia, and I was then the GM of this business. So quite the senior corporate role. These days my life has changed in that sense I left the corporate world seven years ago. I'm now running Confidential peer groups for senior executives and entrepreneurs are discussing the work related challenges and so on, and getting support with those. So that's about me and that's probably what you would see if you look at my profile on the outside. However, I do have a story to share as well. I'm looking forward to digging into that. Like everyone else, Kyla for me also, life has been a rollercoaster. Perhaps I've had some highs really highs and some extreme lows. I hit the rock bottom in 2018 and I'm glad to be alive today. But I patched together my life and it looks very different. I'm looking forward to sharing all about that with you today and the listeners.

Kyla Cofer: 3:45

Yeah, you really did that and you really got into that in your book that you wrote. So let's tell the, listen there is what, what your book is so that we can find that. And it'll definitely be in the show notes, but I wanna hear about this rock bottom story. You, you do really get into it, but let's start there.

Nick Jonsson: 3:57

Yeah. So the book is called Executive Loneliness. And because when I'm looking back at my corporate career, I can remember, you know, a lot of feelings I had of isolation. Mainly focusing on getting the results, hitting the targets, impressing the bosses, and not caring so much about the feelings about the team around me or the feelings around myself. I didn't have a way to express those feelings. I had I didn't know how to deal with them. I was. Pressing them down until they all boiled lower, until they really was bursting out from it. And with that then came a crash and I resigned from my job. That led me to feeling more isolated at home. I divorced my wife. I managed to, at this time also sadly, lose my healthy habits of eating well, exercising. I replaced the exercise and workouts with going to the bar after work consuming too much alcohol that then in itself. Turned into bad habits eventually became a bad addiction for me. And with that, I, I really was grinding myself slowly, going down until in 2018 when I eventually didn't know how I could get out of these bad habits. And I, I really thought that that life was coming to an end. So, so that's What happened to me, I'm glad I managed to turn my life around and that's what I'm sharing especially in my book. You know what was the turning point and what was it that managed to get me back to living life fully again.

Kyla Cofer: 5:28

So you had these like big corporate jobs where, I mean, you were responsible for a lot. It's a GM of like 70 plus hospitals, you said. So you had all of these responsibilities plus people to please, and, and it felt really lonely at the top. And that kind of led you into this downward spiral where you were really destructive and you're open about that in your book and being really destructive and how that, that was really hard being in that leadership role just felt so lonely and, and you turned that inward. You just. Kind of made yourself more lonely. It sounds like You turned that inward and then once you hit that rock bottom in 2018, you recognized that and started getting some help and used some things and to turn your life around, and now you take that situation and help other people with their own lives. All of that also led you to an addiction and so you're in recovery and and working that process as well.

Nick Jonsson: 6:14

Yes, absolutely, and I would say, We only do take on real change and real sustainable change. I think once it really hurts, it's almost like if you think of if you telling a child not to put their hand on the stove and they will do it themselves. You know you gotta burn yourself until it is that painful burning sensation.

Kyla Cofer: 6:35

Yeah, it has to matter to you. You have to see the value in doing something different. Otherwise, if it's working for you where, where you're at, like even though it's not really working for you, it feels comfortable, you know, it feels like it is. And it has to really matter. You do, you get out of it. So was there like a moment when you realized that you needed to do something different, that you needed to change?

Nick Jonsson: 6:53

Well, I think that was something that I felt. For a long time, I felt the isolation. I could feel I need to change, but that didn't mean that I, I took action and I had this conversation as, as yesterday with someone, we're talking about getting outside your comfort zone, and it's very difficult to stretch your comfort zone to step by step become larger. I said, you, you almost need that break. We, we really need that as humans, that it's a huge break. Something is happening that is so painful that we. Forced from outside of it, then only big change is happening to ourselves in the society. And, and that's what happened to me then when, when I just couldn't cope anymore and I burst it out. And that, while that was extremely painful, that was probably what I needed. It's like a great big reset, you know? And then you're patching yourself together, all the habits you have, the life you have. Is gone. You have to really, really start from scratch and I'm glad I had that opportunity. Because, as we call it in recovery, It's that gift of desperation that gives you the opportunity to really build a new life together in a different way.

Kyla Cofer: 8:00

You know, I have a lot of people that I love who are in recovery, and I've just always so admired anybody who has made that change because you really have to do, it's, it's like a 360 and you're, you're taking a lifestyle and completely turning and going a different direction, and it takes a lot of courage and a lot of reflection, and honestly, a lot of hope cuz you have hope that it's gonna be different, that your life is gonna be different. So you have all of those things, but. I think about my life in times when I'm have wanted to change something and it's, I don't wanna change who I am. It takes a lot of work. And so I just have so much admiration for you for doing that. So can you tell us a little bit about like, that process, like how, how did you change your life? Because it's drastically different today than it was in 2018. What? Well, tell us about how your life is different today. And you said you're running a program, supporting others. So tell us about that and, and then walk us through how you made that change.

Nick Jonsson: 8:51

Well, My life is mainly different today because the ego has been completely deflated and I no longer have any secret. So you can almost call me an open book. You read my book, you know my stories in the book. It's available on Amazon, there's no way I can hide anywhere. And so if someone wants to know about me, it's all there and, and it's official information. So, you know, while I was scared about that, that's a big relief when you live like that and today that is one of my greatest strengths. People feel comfortable to come to me and to be honest with me, they feel comfortable sharing what's going on. And that's to the point where I'm a volunteer for many organizations. It's only yesterday and right now after this, I continue to arrange for, for one school teacher who was actually taken into a hospital yesterday. He has a lot of anxiety around potentially being laid off from work, and he cannot break the addiction now. So he's drinking. He needed a detox yesterday and after about 48 hours he will be transferred to a rehab and I'm supporting behind the scene for all this happen and giving him the comfort of knowing around the corner lies something that is better. Don't overthink now, just step by step. And that's really what worked for me as well. It's about not overthinking it, not looking too much in the future with anxiety just. We say in recovery that live a day at a time, but in the beginning it's almost like even one hour at a time just to get going and, and that's how I live my life now. I don't overcomplicate it, I don't think too far in the future. And that is the kind of life that I think many people need. We live in a world where, you know, there's so much change, there's so much uncertainties that if you start trying to think your way through this and thinking too far in the future, Everyone is gonna be full with anxiety and, and that links back to then, Kyla, what I do today. So professionally also I'm running confidential peer groups These are for senior executives or for entrepreneurs where you are matched with people at your seniority working in jobs with similar responsibilities so that you can discuss your challenges there and your feelings around that and express them and solving these work related problems before they become painful and leading to isolation. So we're trying to attack it and address it on a day to day basis, that's what fills me with a lot of, you know, happiness to be able to know that we're sorting this out so people don't have to go down that path that I did.

Kyla Cofer: 11:22

So you said a lot of things that really stood out to me, but the two things that I heard were connection and vulnerability. That it sounds like you are these peer groups. What you're doing is you're building connection with people and when you have that connection, connection is so powerful and, and. I don't know how many times I have to say this. If anybody has listened to this podcast for any amount of time, they've heard me say this so many times. That connection matters. It is crucial to our own wellbeing. It is crucial to our leadership. And so when you have that connection, you just, you know that you're not as alone, and so you're already taking away that loneliness, which is part of what led you down that path to destruction. The vulnerability piece though. How did you feel before you were willing to be vulnerable? And what did that feel like when you first started telling your story and telling your secrets and those kinds of things, what did that feel like? And then what did it feel like after when you did that?

Nick Jonsson: 12:14

So, vulnerability is something that perhaps, especially senior executives are really scared of, and it's generally been seen and still is seen as perhaps a weakness. And you're trying to hide when you're trying to put on a show.

Kyla Cofer: 12:32

Do you think that's because of, feel like there are negative consequences to being vulnerable, like we might lose our job or something bad's gonna happen?

Nick Jonsson: 12:38

That's the perception. Yes. And I call it a smiling depression in my book where we are trying to make sure that everything looks so good. We have this beautiful profile joining speaker panels, having this you know, being in articals as a leader and really to show the best of us. But behind the scene is an anxious overachiever who is constantly trying to, you know, deliver at the best to feed their own egos so that they should feel well. And I'm generalizing now, but many, many leaders are anxious over acheivers that already from school, including, for me, I was chasing the scholarships. And once you have the feeling, You know, topping a class and getting that recognition and awards that comes with that, coming into those special evenings when you're getting, you know, on Dean's list or the chancellor's list and getting up on stage in front of and getting the photo, you know, that feeling is also something that becomes addictive. And it became addicted to me, and I know that many other leaders feel the same. And then once you're down that path, you don't wanna let go, you know? So winning can be addictive and that might not be a very healthy thing cause it puts too much pressure on yourself that you, rather than having the connection you're talking about, Kyla, you prioritize getting those recognitions and when you don't get them, you're missing them, and you'll do anything to get there again.. So in that sense, that is how I was living and feeling about vulnerability before that one. I didn't wanna be vulnerable. And also you might be scared to share the secrets, and what's going on. You don't want to share downsides and the challenges and the feelings that you had becuase you're worried I'm not going to get on top of anything. That answers your first question.

Kyla Cofer: 14:22

That's makes perfect sense. And I felt, I think most of us have felt that I would be really surprised if there was a listener out there who had never felt that before. And I, I mean, I've certainly felt that and. I wanna hear the other half. How did it feel once you started being more vulnerable?

Nick Jonsson: 14:36

The simple answer is that's not something that. Once you're down the path of, you know, being closed to stretching that and open up slowly is not something that perhaps people easily do. So in my case, it, it came from that gift desperation. When I hit rock bottom, and I patched it together, then naturally I became, Vulnerable in a close circle. And in the first year of my recovery, it was all in an Anonymous support group. Discussing with others, listening to others, and as I started to hear others sharing their stories, day by day I started to open up a little bit, but it, the first two, three months, I was basically just listening, saying what my name was and I didn't. So here I was, you know, a hundred days basically listening to people opening up and was shocked all the time, how open, how honest they were. And it took me a few months before I started to say a tiny little bit. After a year I shared quite a lot including this close circle. I decided also to share a little bit with my close friends outside of this. But then one year later, something happened that changed everything. A good friend of mine, a Senior executive who was highly successful died of suicide, and that's the moment when I decided to suddenly I did a LinkedIn post about this, a video, and I started a fund to raise money and awareness about basically the isolation, and that went viral on LinkedIn. And people wrote to me all over the world and within twenty-four hours I was on live radio talking about this and I was in this shock state, but also had a lot of anger inside me for, you know, feeling that why did Simon die in this way? We could have stopped this if only we could speak to each other. So I was in this anger state. I spilled out the whole truth about myself. My whole story was live on radio and after that it went straight to newspaper and TV and everywhere. So that's how it happened. So it was not by a choice, it was just in that state. It all happened.

Kyla Cofer: 16:39

Wow. So just, it was like you really weren't even thinking about it. Your soul and your body had to just get it out.

Nick Jonsson: 16:46

Absolutely. Kyla so and you know, looking back, it's the best thing that ever happened to me. So in that sense, sadly, Simon went, but it made me change myself and I know gladly that many, many lives after this has been saved and I keep hearing this frequently, I'll happy to share with you, stories of someone whose life has been saved thanks to this process as well.

Kyla Cofer: 17:13

So I've said for a long time that where there is truth, the darkness loses its power. And I grew up with a religious background, so it has that like tone to it. But but this is what I mean for it here. When I, when I say that this is exactly what I mean is that when you speak the truth of who you are and your struggles, your hopes, dreams, all of it, then. Your secrets, the things that you're afraid of, they just don't hold their power over you anymore. You can let it go and you can move on. And what's beautiful is that then, just like you said, other people start approaching you because other people are looking for that and they need that, and they need the first person to be courageous enough to share it. And so you are that person and, and. It was hard for you, but you did it and now you're helping so many other people through that and it helped. And that you've had this experience being at the executive role. So you know what you're talking about. Like, you know how lonely this can be. I've heard that so many times. It's so lonely at the top, you know? But it doesn't have to be lonely. So tell me more about, so you joined this group, you practice vulnerability. Can you walk me through? You have. And I'm, I'm blanking out here on your four steps because I, your book had so much good quality information on it. Can you walk me through like your exact steps of what, what you recommend?

Nick Jonsson: 18:29

Yeah, sure. And this is not necessarily, you know, the five steps in my book. Don't have to hit rock bottom. You don't have to go that far. This is for anybody to do. Bit of a check up, you know, and put themselves on the right path. So it's for anybody. And the first step there is them taking stock in. The way I see it here, Kyla, is that, you know, if you think about shop owner, they naturally do a stock take or audit and knowing what they have in store, you know, as human beings, sadly, we don't do that very often. You know, we don't take that inventory check on really looking where we're, but it's important to take a stop there. And we can do that if we discipline by ourselves with a pen and paper and a spreadsheet. But it's easier to do it perhaps like what I did with a, on a sponsor in the recovery program. If you don't know there, you can do it with a coach or a friend or a mentor. You can support each other to do it, but it's really to. Getting down everything, you know, on that piece of paper. Everything from, and being honest, it's like looking yourself in the mirror. In my case, I had to write down, I was heavily overweight at that time. I was eating bad. I didn't sleep enough. I was addicted to alcohol. I had many relaltionships that were broken, I had to write down a list of all the people. That I had harmed the people who I felt was thinking about and having painful feelings about. I had to write a list of all those people here.

Kyla Cofer: 19:54

Okay, so this, I'm so glad you said you don't have to hit rock bottom to get to, to do this because this is like life coaching 101, right? We, so this is the first thing we always recommend, and even in your book, I love how you had like the life coach wheel and you had all these like coaching, coaching tools in there. But for anybody listening, this is something I wanna encourage you to do like today, like this week, today, this week. Like, do it. If you haven't done this in a while, I don't care what level you're at in your leadership, if you are a low level leader, or if you're at the top, if you have are burnt out, or if you're just getting started, start now and do this. Take the stock of where you are and. Get a reflection. I like rating scales a lot because I think they're easy. So you can get like on a scale of one to 10, one being like, you should really be in the hospital, 10 is like you're the best condition of your life. Like where would you rate yourself in any all of these areas because it gives you a good idea of like how you're doing and when you do that, when you're healthy. And you practice it when you're healthy, when things aren't going well, then it's easier to do and you're already practiced like, you know, meditation or training or coaching when you're, you know, you train and you practice for the game, and then on game day your body already knows how to do all these motions. And it's the same with our mind.

Nick Jonsson: 21:05

Yes, absolutely. Taking stock is something that I still do now. I'm now in my fifth year of recovery and. You know, we need to come back to this and we need to look at this. Cause there would be new things added to the list that we need to address as well. So this is an ongoing process, but if you have never done it, do it the first time and it would really, really improve your life. For sure.

Kyla Cofer: 21:25

Yeah. Okay. So we're gonna take stock, then what? Then what are we gonna do?

Nick Jonsson: 21:28

Then we need to take that list and and ask for help. And it's starting here with being a bit vulnerable. So in my case then I had to go and see a doctor. I had to do a blood test. I had to really, really look after them. Some of those things there, and that's what we do in the second step. Taking the list and looking line by line, who can I ask for this particular issue to get help with?

Kyla Cofer: 21:49

So I started this podcast because I wanted to learn and grow in my leadership journey, and I have been so incredibly inspired by the guests and the conversations, and especially recently with this college tour, I've really learned so much. So once the interview ends, I actually keep the conversation going because I have found that sometimes the richest part of the conversation is when we feel like the interview's over and we can just kind of have a relaxed, more casual conversation. Also, if you've noticed, if you've been following this podcast for some time, I used to ask every guest two questions. What does Integrity mean to them and what does balance look like to them? Well, I haven't stopped asking those questions. We're just putting those over on our Patreon page. So go check it out at patreon.com/leadership school, and for $6 and 50 cents a month, you can support this podcast. It takes a lot to produce every single episode and. Honestly, I could use a little bit of support. So anything that you're able to contribute would really mean a lot to me and would able to help me to continue to bring these high caliber guests in to have conversations on what does it look like to be an extraordinary leader, and how do we practically, I. Do that. So those conversations are continuing over at patreon.com/leadership school where I'm asking guests some extra questions, some bonus questions, and you'll get some bonus content over there. So be sure to go check it out. Thanks so much for your support and thanks for so much for subscribing, listening and sharing this podcast. It really does mean a lot, and I'm so honored to show up here in your podcast feed. Okay, I, when I was reading this, I really appreciate that we need to ask for help and I'm the first person to tell everybody to ask for help. I'm not that great at asking for help myself, but I'm really good at telling you to go ask for help and I've had to kind of learn, especially in the last few weeks, but sometimes what I struggle with, and so I'm just curious about you personally, how you have dealt with this is, I'm not sure what kind of help I need or how to ask for it. Yeah, I could say, I can recognize that I need help, but sometimes our brains are just in such survival mode that we don't even know what kind of help to ask for. And so it's just like trying to get through to the next day. And you can't even pause long enough to go, okay, I need help. So I think that this could be hard to notice and and hard to do, but I think it's okay to just say, I don't know what kind of help I need, but I know that I need something. And when you ask one person, then you can. Go ask a second person and the whole team can work together to figure out how to support you. And I also think, you know, it's funny how we can like look at someone we really, really care about and think if this person ever need help, I would drop everything and I would certainly support them and help them. I would be there because I love them. But then we think that no one would do that for us. And it just doesn't make any sense.

Nick Jonsson: 24:41

Yeah. Well, Kyla I can tell you these days, my whole desk here is full of post-it notes and I keep writing down as soon as I have something that I, I, I sense now, and I do this on a real time basis now, soon as something, something stress, I cannot sleep about something, I always write it down. And next to that has, you know, here's my list for today, or the people I need to message call incorporated this in my company now among 800 members we have here in Southeast Asia, we created button called ask for help and you can actually either have it with your name as a signature or you can click anonymous. That means that you can write down, this is the challenge I have. And of course the most is work related, right? I need to do a new staff manual. I need to recruit this person, or what should be the salary benchmark for this? Whatever the question is in a professional manner, you, you can click the button, ask for help, you write it down, and then you, your signature or anonymous, you send it away and within one or two minutes, people will start asking you. So we're doing this on a real time basis here. Really practice. Everyone to always assume to need help, ask for help.

Kyla Cofer: 25:49

And practicing that with any topic so that when you're like struggling with something really, really personal, you've already worked. Like we just said a minute ago, you've already worked at it. You already know how to reach out and you know who to reach out to. Those are your people like they're the people who are gonna support you and be there for you in community. Man, what? It's so amazing how. Much community solves problems and connections and, and just being with people. We were just never meant to live in isolation. And, and, and I will just shout this so loudly, as much as I possibly can, if we have to do it every episode, I'm going to repeat it and repeat it, repeat it, be with people and you're gonna be there for people too. And it just, it's so important. Okay, so we're going to ask for help. We're gonna take stock, we're gonna ask for help. What else are we gonna do?

Nick Jonsson: 26:33

And it was really, you know, in my case and I can recommend everyone, focus then on getting Healthy. Get well on the inside First. And for me, in this instance, it was getting a life coach, get the diet well. Well, you know, setting goals of, of losing some fat, getting exercise, getting some wearable devices. And my coach set me some goals. I had to log every day automatically, and he was, you know, cheering on me, on the sideline and sharing and gamification there got me going. And it was baby steps in the beginning, but really getting back into some healthy living again. And I think that is essential when we're, even if we're in a recovery journey. Or in a, a daily basis, we cannot address the outside unless we sort out the inside, both the physical and the mental health first.

Kyla Cofer: 27:21

Yes. We cannot address the outside until we address the inside. So how long did it take you? Like, did you get on, on bike on day one and you were like, okay, all better?

Nick Jonsson: 27:32

Definitely not. It was basically just walking Two miles a day in the beginning and then even eventually three miles. And then, so the first three months was very, very slowly. It was not easy, it was more just getting out, you know, just doing something and in, and, and setting some small goals. But within six months I was up and running and yes, cycling as well. So it's only a year later, I completed a full iron Man. So that's what can happen, you know.,

Kyla Cofer: 28:04

Wait, it only took you a year from that, from where you could like barely walk two miles to being a full Ironman? Yes. And you're still doing Ironmans, you've got one coming up.

Nick Jonsson: 28:13

Yes, indeed. You can even see my bike in the picture there. I'm actually now in Thailand, Paquette where I'm staying at the. Athletes training, camp training with some of the best athletes in South Asia from all over the world here, and have a race coming up in three weeks, which I'm excited about.

Kyla Cofer: 28:30

Wow. Can we just take a second and celebrate that? That's so amazing. Were you an an athlete before that?

Nick Jonsson: 28:37

I was, but it was not as easy cause I, again, I was do doing all the whole sport by myself, being isolated, not really knowing how to do it. Plus I was managing extremely hard life, plus I was consuming alcohol, plus I didn't eat as healthy, I didn't sleep as well. So it was much harder. Now and I know to live healthy, it's much more enjoyable than I'm really, really enjoying it, you know, despite I'm. Turning 48 years. Next week in the Ironman you have the age group, and I, I was in recently top 1% in the world for my age group. So that's the beauty of living a healthy life.

Kyla Cofer: 29:15

Okay, well, I kind of wanna go for a run right now. You're like really inspiring me over here. Wow. That's really impressive that you could, that you went through that big of a change in your life. It's very significant and it took a lot of work. Were there times when you wanted to quit and you just wanted to give up and you were just done?

Nick Jonsson: 29:35

Not so often. I really, really have been, you know, motivated. Of course there's been setbacks, it's been injuries, it's been sickness and illness like the normal life. But I have not lost the you know, the passion. Cause I'm also surrounding myself with so many people. I'm looking forward to my swim squad this morning with athletes. I'm looking forward to the, the sunset run we gonna have tonight. And you know, it's two training sessions a day here and then I'm working in between that last time with you now, before. So, you know, my life is so fulfilling, getting the sport, getting. The, the relationships, the connections with other people, and then working between that plaza. I have my wife here. I'm remarried today, so you know, I live a much better life. And in that sense, no, I haven't lost my, my feelings or happiness. So the drive towards this, I will go as long as I can and then I will support average during the sport and fall over the yoga, which I love as well.

Kyla Cofer: 30:33

Wow, that's amazing. Did we cover all your steps? We, we talked about three.

Nick Jonsson: 30:38

We are coming into step four. So now we're well internally and healthy that it's time to tackle relationships. And I know that's painful. That's why we need to be, you know, so well with ourselves. We have to heal ourselves before we can reach out to fix relationships. And what I mean in step four is really. Because already in step one, you would've made a list of all the people who were, when you were thinking about them, they give you some pain. There was some perhaps something you have said to them or they said to do that cause pain. And in my instance, and I would care, encourage everyone to go through from young childhood. And what I did when I did this, I went through the list and looked back at all school photos in the albums. And looking at every picture of every person. If I felt any pain was an incident that I said something to that person did bully someone, had I said something. All those people had go the list and here then nurturing relationships. And this is best discussed with a coach, a sponsor, or a mentor we will prepare to go back and make amends to these, even if it was 40 years ago. We, are not to risk causing harm to anyone. You don't want to go back to ex-boyfriend who is remarried and, and caused some drama or issues. But if it's ok, then you'll come back to the person here. And in my instance, Kyla can give you an example. There was an incident that happened to me with my sister where she had given a coca-cola to my son and, and he was not allowed at age of five to drink a Coca-Cola. When I saw that you know, I blew up and I dragged my son away from the kitchen table and we walked out. And after that, my sister and I didn't have a good relationship for a few years. I avoided her. I didn't reach out, I didn't speak. So when I came to this step, of course I had to write her down and had to go back to her. I asked her if we could go out for lunch. And I made my apologies, and I said, I'm sorry about that incident. And I said, I've now changed my life. This is the path I'm on now. And of course she, forgave me, and the relationship was repaired like this. So it's about doing that with perhaps 50, or in my case, around 70 people. I've heard others who had 400 people on the list, and you can imagine how you feel once you have. Prepared those 400 feelings internally.

Kyla Cofer: 32:57

Wow. a list of 400. What about, did you include on your list people that you'd worked with, like in your executive roles and what did that look like? Because you had, you'd been at these high level jobs and, and I'm certain that that affected the people that you worked with. What, what did that look

Nick Jonsson: 33:14

like? Yeah. I had to include every single workplace and every colleague I worked with. If there was something that gave me feelings, if I could remember having said something. A lot were around layoffs. When I'd been laid off, I had pain. Feelings of two of the bosses who laid me off and I had to address this. And in one or two of them I can remember was so painful that later on I had to see psychologist to talk about these feelings I had and to really, really dig deep to repair it. Cause we cannot afford, as human beings to move forward in life, having any sort of pain or any unsaid things with any people, any relationships. And as I said, again, the key is not to hurt others. So if the person is not accessible or the person have died or you worry that you could cause harm, then you'll write a letter about it and maybe you pray about it and then, Maybe the letter is not sent. You know, maybe the letter is burnt or thrown in the rubbish bin, but at least you done your part of. It's about cleaning your side of the street so that you have no feelings and negative feelings around any relationship.

Kyla Cofer: 34:22

It's a lot of work, but it's very worth it, you know, and feel like you can move forward with more pride in who you are and, and making better decisions. It's gonna make you a better leader. It does make you a better leader because you're more vulnerable in your leadership positions, which means you're also allowing the people that you're leading to be more vulnerable.

Nick Jonsson: 34:38

Absolutely. And the point here is that you clean all your old baggages today. I now do this on a daily basis, I think through, at the end of each day. Did I send an email? Did say something that was not quite right today? Was it something that happened? Then I addressed that before bedtime, I will send another message to that person saying, or that was not quite right. Let give you a call tomorrow please. So I have to sort this out on a dayday basis so that you never compound any painful feelings around people or relationships again.

Kyla Cofer: 35:09

Wow. I'm just thinking about, you know, how in life that it takes work. Relationships take effort. They take pursuit and things take work and, and it's not like we are just coasting by, we're making effort and, and we're putting work into it. But it's so rewarding to do that. And if, if we're so caught up in the, the fear of losing our job, the fear of making a bad decision, trying to impress the right people. Then we're losing track of who we are and what we're really doing as leaders. That that's not our job as leaders. We're not there to lead other people to be afraid of being vulnerable, to be afraid of losing their jobs, to be afraid to come to us if they need support in their roles. You know, we don't wanna lead that way. And so when we we're starting out, being that person who is willing to go there, I think that we're changing not just ourselves and our community, but I'm seeing how that kind of mentality is spreading through the world and really changing the way that we approach work, the way that we approach relationships and and just living our life. That it, it becomes more. I don't know. The image that came in my mind was a rainbow. It's just more beautiful. It's just very colorful.

Nick Jonsson: 36:20

Yeah, no, it's absolutely true. And we're linking it over here now, we're coming into step five, and you can see the connection here. It's about finding your purpose. So the reason I end with my book with finding Your Purpose is that especially when it comes to many senior executives or executives and entrepreneurs, is that the ego might be too inflated. It's too much about ourselves. Not enough about other people. So I learned in recovery, you know, if if we give, get a gift of the recovery, then we have to pass on that gift to keep it. And that is what every recovery program is about. And you have probably heard that it's a 12 step programs, and the 12 step is always, now you've done this first 11 steps. Now on step 12, it's about giving it back and helping others and that it has to be a like this. So in that sense, you know, the purpose is look inside yourself. What is it that you can do for others and, and give back everything you can. So in that sense, that's why I'm so grateful that you invited me today, Kyla. Cause you gave me the opportunity today to share with you and your listeners how they also can go through what I've done and what I've really, really changed my life and so many other people.

Kyla Cofer: 37:30

Yeah, I'm glad you said that at the end too, about where were you at? Cuz it can kind of get into a trap of like when you, things are spiraling down that it just is never gonna get any better and that this is just the end. Like this is the worst and. I mean, I think back to when I was younger and there would be times you just really struggling with stuff and you don't have the experience of getting through hard things. And so you think like, this is the worst thing ever. Like the your first breakup, right? Your first breakup, you're like, this is the worst. My life is over. No one's gonna love me again. And, and then you realize that that is never true and you are very loved and. And you grow and you move through that. And I think especially when you're at that top level, you're making tons of money and you're, you're leading hundreds, thousands of people making these decisions that affect lives and, and you make a wrong one, you make a bad one. You have the stress that holds onto you. Your body can hold onto that stress. And it's really easy to think that like, that there's no getting out of this and you don't know what to do, but you're just living proof that that's not true. That. You can live a really full life and lead others well.

Nick Jonsson: 38:37

Yeah, absolutely. And that's what it's all about. And since we are on the path of being vulnerable, you also naturally, people will see this and come to you for help. Which is a blessing. You feel people trust you to take him through this. And I've even had a guy who came into one of my job interviews and when we were talking, you know, five minutes in, he, he shared that he had sadly tried to end his own life twice. That's how safe he felt to share that with me in a job interview. He's been hired and he's still working for me today. So you know, he had read my book before the job interview. And we have a completely open relationship, as you can imagine, as a result of this.

Kyla Cofer: 39:21

Oh, that's awesome. Well, I, I really am just admire you a lot and I really admire your vulnerability and your willingness to share and just have a lot of gratitude for you. Going there. I, I wanted to ask, what is the name of your peer group? You said it's anonymous, but you could still join the group. It's just anonymous within the group. And is this a worldwide or is this local?

Nick Jonsson: 39:42

So the company is called EGN. Executives Global Network. You have a lot of similar networks in US as well. Vista is one of them. Who's there for, you know, CEOs? While Vista is for the CEOs, we do also for executives, we have young leaders as well. So it's for any executive really. But the concept is the same in all these groups. It's about being vulnerable, discussing your challenges, and getting support to solve them. And if you cannot find a peer group where you. This mastermind group so you can set up your own. Awesome.

Kyla Cofer: 40:17

Thank you Nick. Is there anything else that you wanna make sure people hear from you before we

Nick Jonsson: 40:21

No, I think just the key message from me today is, you know, if to anyone, if there's some pain there write it down and think about who you can talk to about it. If it's not a coach, a mentor, or a sponsor, then there's psychologist, the therapists, there's also all these numerous support groups full of volunteers ready to take your call and support you right away. So don't, don't sleep on it. Don't walk around with the pain. Just reach out.

Kyla Cofer: 40:48

That's reducing the stigma. Stigma of it too. You know, like those people are there to support because people need the support and there's no shame or embarrassment in reaching out for the support because everybody needs it. It's not let you are less than because you need help and someone else doesn't. They need it too. We all need it. There should be no shame around asking for that help. So I think that's what we're trying to do really here in this episode is just, let's just erase that shame like. Take it out and move out of it and through it in a way to know that there's pride in asking for help, and that's a beautiful, wonderful thing and, and a courageous thing. Yes, absolutely. Awesome. Thank you Nick so much. This is really, this is really amazing. Make sure y'all check out his book. It'll be in the show notes. It's Executive Loneliness.

Nick Jonsson: 41:33

Thank you Kyla, and thanks to all listeners.

Kyla Cofer: 41:37

Hey, thank you so much for listening. If you've liked what you heard and you want some more tools and resources to help you on your journey, go check out kyla cofer.com/free stuff.