Ep. 72: Finding Cohesiveness with guest Ulrike Seminati

Communication - we know we need it. Have you ever struggled to get your team to be a cohesive unit working toward the same goal? It's because of communication. Ulrike Seminati has a way of getting people to buy into your vision. You'll be inspired by her story while you find creative ways to...

• Find the motivation of your audience
• Empower yourself
• Create a non-toxic workplace

As a well-established coach and consultant, and former C-level executive Ulrike Seminati is the go-to expert for authentic leadership and impactful communication. By combining cutting-edge self-development techniques with her vast hands-on experience as a corporate communications executive she helps leaders to build credibility and trust through effective communication. More than just a CCA-certified coach, Ulrike is a true expert on leading across hierarchy levels and different cultures and provides pragmatic and easy-to-use tools to her clients.

Chapters

• 4:39 The Motivation of the Audience
• 15:32 How Women Can Empower Themselves
• 19:13 Inner Motivations Systems

Transcript

Kyla Cofer: 0:05

Welcome to the Leadership School podcast. I'm your host, leadership and self-care coach, Kyla Cofer. Here at the Leadership School, you'll hear leaders from around the world sharing their stories and expertise on how to lead with balance and integrity. Our goal teach you how to be an extraordinary leader. Welcome back Leaders. Today, I'm privileged to introduce to you Ulrike Seminati. She is a leadership and communications coach with over 20 years of experience, and she uses the experience that she gained as a C-level executive to really engage us in teaching us about how to communicate better and our workplaces. So she does a lot of work with empowering women leaders. So we do talk a little bit about women in leadership here, but most of our conversation is centered around how to be better communicators and how to create a non-toxic workplace by using better communication skills. So thanks so much for listening and join me to welcome Ulrike Seminati. Ulrike, thanks so much for joining me for Leadership School. I'm really excited to talk to you. So I was wondering if you could just go ahead and get us started by telling us a little bit about you and what you've done and what you're doing and everything that has led you up to what you're doing today. And we'll start there. Sound good?

Ulrike Seminati: 1:24

Yeah. All good. Thank you for having me. It's a great pleasure to be here today. Well, I'm providing trainings these days and coachings for leaders to lead with authenticity and to communicate with impact. And how did I get there? So I was myself a corporate leader for 23 years, well, not in the first place. The first place I started off as a secretary. Then I climbed off the whole career ladder relatively quickly, and I ended up in a C level position. For the last three years of my corporate career and always working with corporate communications, actually. It's always shaping campaigns or on values and missions and then visions and whatever.

Kyla Cofer: 2:00

What kind of industry were you in?

Ulrike Seminati: 2:01

Very different industries. I started with automotive, went to chemicals, agriculture, television, and the last was pharma. Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. So actually very variety. Yeah. Which was interesting too, because from a messaging point of view, obviously that changes, but the principles don't change of communications. When I was in the C level role myself, and I saw it really from the top, I realized that there's this huge, huge lack of communication when it comes to leader communications, that it's a human to human thing in the corporate organizations, and we treat it as if we were managing tasks and projects all the time. And I thought there's something really fundamentally wrong. So many people are frustrated. So many leaders hate the topic of I have to become a good communicator because I heard it a hundred times in the 20 years of career.

Kyla Cofer: 2:49

Yeah. And we're like, what does that mean? Okay. You're telling me I have to be better, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ulrike Seminati: 2:53

Exactly, but at the end they don't change anything, so things don't change. So I thought I need to do something about that. I tried first internally, but quickly realized that when you're internal, you are not seen as the expert. It's always the same thing. So I thought, okay, I have to get out of the corporate world, shape my own business and come from the external side as an expert in again, because they listen to external experts. It's, it's really a paradox, actually. Yeah, and so that's what I'm doing today. I have a strong focus on bringing the authentic self to work. That people have that courage to be different if they are, and to not fit into this corporate leadership persona that they think the organization expects them to be. And it's really all about getting them this power from the inside. And by this also my thing, actually communicating with more impact because it comes from the inside out. It's not just learning a set of new skills, it's really about how you feel and think about yourself. And that is, that is my mission today. And I'm doing this across different types of organizations, very big ones, very small ones, and sometimes individuals who just want to have one-on-one coaching on that.

Kyla Cofer: 4:01

Wow. Okay. So when you say better communication, what does that look like and what does that mean? Because I think, like you said, we're all like, well, we need to do it differently, and it's just sometimes it does get redundant or it gets overwhelming and, and we don't need it to be, we understand that we have to communicate better, but we don't really know that we're not communicating well. Tell me a little bit more about what that looks like for what you've learned.

Ulrike Seminati: 4:24

So, well, it's a vast field, obviously, but it's all about understanding who you do that for. Most people shape their message, tailor-made to the one person who never gets it and that it is themselves. Yeah. So we, we do that. Obviously we come from our perspective, when we think about logical arguments, how we want to motivate our teams for a project, for example. Then we give the arguments that come to our mind first, and these are the only arguments for us and for no one else. And then we wonder why others don't buy in, why they even shy away. So we create the opposite effects sometimes because we don't think to step into the shoes of our audience, which is the typical thing that we do in communications or marketing, and it's all about the audience. This so-called target audience. But as an individual, you need to think that too. If you speak to someone, What is the motivation of that person? The, and there are two types of motivations. The inner motivations, how are they wired? Are they looking for status and power? Are they looking for security? Are they looking for having space for creativity? Are they looking for human connection only? It's very different. And where are you so that you can see also the gap between you and this other person. That's what's inside. But then there's obviously something that is. More the outside factors, like do they have career aspirations? Do they have the next position already in mind? What is the area of expertise where they have a real interest in these things? And it's a complex mix of things you need to consider. But I think the simple fact, the very first thing of just understanding if I want to communicate well, I need to switch sites and perspective, I need to go onto the other side first, and then I think about how I say things, which words I use, and well, how I bring up my arguments to get buy-in.

Kyla Cofer: 6:12

Yeah. You know, I have in the past, I personally have been good at this at times and bad at this at times, and I'm thinking through what you're saying and like, yeah, that makes sense, obviously. But you think, oh, well of course you have to know what the other person is thinking and experiencing in order to communicate well to them. But then actually the doing it can be really challenging, but it's not that so much that it's challenging. It can get really exhausting because you're constantly having to put yourself in someone else's position and. The more you practice that, the easier it gets. But there are definitely, I understand the times when you're like, I just don't wanna do that right now. Could you just hear it the way that I'm saying it? And, and I think there's some like that fe that back and forth where the more you work with people, the more you get to know them and the more you can kind of understand the way you, that you're talking and interacting. But how do you do that every single time? How do you build up that level of li It's really listening. It's really listening and attention and attending to the experience of somebody else. How do you like incorporate that as part of your routine?

Ulrike Seminati: 7:12

You said it a bit yourself. Do it in small steps. Imagine you go to a training or to one of my trainings, or you go to a training and you learn exactly what you should do, and then you think, wow, now I have to implement these for the whole working day, for every single conversation. No way. I mean, no way. Yeah. Choose your battles one by one. And like you say, you start shifting into a different way of starting your conversations then, but start with the easier ones. Start with those where you have the feeling. For this person, I know quite well what they actually want, and I have considered it maybe halfway so far because at least I was already aware. So certainly you did something in that sense, but not all. How can I do that better? What more can I do? It really started with listening. Listening is one of these, absolutely. Immensely important communication skills. If there's just one to choose, then choose this one and learn to just listen first, ask questions, what people want, what they're motivated by, what's on top of their mind. These questions, which sometimes we ask them. But we don't really listen to the answer. It's rather a question like, how are you? And we, we don't interested really in the answer. I mean, it's just, you ask it and people say, fine, and then you move on if they're fine or not.

Kyla Cofer: 8:24

Or you're like listening for a certain answer and when, and you pick up on that one piece. Yeah. I mean, how many of us are so guilty of this, myself included? Like I'm, I'm paying attention and listening for them to say something specific. And once they say that, like, I clinging onto that and then forget everything else that they've said and it, and it's hard to put it all together in one piece to really make forward progress.

Ulrike Seminati: 8:45

Yeah. Yeah. Learn to listen first. You can do that for two weeks, three, four weeks. Give yourself time for that to just catch if you're listening, and one advice I give my clients all the time is listen to understand versus listen to reply. We listen to reply most of the times, like you say you hear something and then you think, oh, I have to, I have to ask Dad. I have to say that I have to give this comment. And in this very moment, you're not listening anymore. You are into your dialogue. Us.

Kyla Cofer: 9:13

Yeah. You're making it about you of like, how can I respond? What's my role here? I need to make sure I have the right, the perfect response. And contributing somehow in this moment.

Ulrike Seminati: 9:23

Exactly, and that is a first exercise that is really difficult because that's not what we usually do. Just try to do that first. Really try just to understand nothing else and run the risk that you have a gap afterwards that your question is not coming out in the second that you need two or three seconds more, which feels very long then. Yeah. But, but just have that courage to try that out. Maybe not in your crucial conversations first where it's about important stakeholders, where you want to shine, where you put yourself. A lot of pressure on use conversation. Simple ones maybe with your friends or in your private life, just to learn that and realize how much you are not listening, to really understand how much you're listening to reply. So

Kyla Cofer: 10:03

you mentioned you had multiple seat level experiences, and in those positions, how many of the problems could have been solved just by listening better.

Ulrike Seminati: 10:12

That's a hard thing to say, but I think solve is maybe not the right word, but certainly accelerated very, very much. I don't know, 70, 80% at minimum. There is a number out there that 70% of business mistakes are due to poor communication, and I think this is very realistic because the thing is when we don't listen, because we also don't listen meetings. Worst case we are even typing emails. At the same time, and with online working, it's even happening more. Yeah. So we listen half ear and that leads to another meeting. Yeah. So in the meeting, nothing's really decided because people didn't listen. And then we go to the next meeting. Let's have about a second one and a third one, and we run into this spiral of endless meetings. Nobody has time. Everybody's overwhelmed. Because we just didn't listen in the first place. And just understanding that you can make a difference even in your time management because you avoid misunderstandings. It, it's just also a great insight to start with.

Kyla Cofer: 11:13

Wow. Okay. So when people are coming to you and saying, we need help with communication, is that what they're asking for? Are they usually asking for a different problem and you're coming in and helping them with the communication?

Ulrike Seminati: 11:23

Most of them are coming in from the perspective that they are not good presenters, that it's not engaging enough where they speak to a group of people, these kind of things. And then we find out that for some of them, that's their biggest problem. Indeed. And there you can work a lot with skills and a little bit with mindset training as well. When you stand in front of a bigger crowd, how you feel and you know how you're. Body language and changes when, you know, don't feel good about yourself in this moment, but it turns out very quickly that the devil's in the detail means in the one-on-one discussions that you have every day in the normal meetings with five, six, or three people that you have every day, all day long, and that there actually you can make a difference. So we, we often move from the obvious thing like presentation skills into the more subtle area of communication, which is not so obvious for many people because it stays very conceptual in a way.

Kyla Cofer: 12:13

You, in the past, have done a lot of work working specifically with women. Are you still doing that or are you kind of helping just everybody?

Ulrike Seminati: 12:23

Both. I'm helping everybody because obviously when I have a corporation coming, rarely they come with only women. Usually they come with the leadership team and as it is, usually there are more men than women in this leadership team. Yeah, so still, still like that with women. I work more in one and one sessions because it's really about how can I be bold? How can I be myself? How can I dare to be myself in my role, even if I step up to the next level? I don't feel that I bring in exactly the profile they're expecting, and then we are working on the expectations and on managing yourself on how to bring your true self to the table proudly and without feeling like an imposture and without feeling not good enough and everything that. That often comes with it because you women have very, very high expectations towards themselves. So that's a bit, their specificity is the, and also high level of perfectionism. Very, very often I see, but much more often than with men who just can go over their mistakes and move on to the next topic without overthinking. Whereas women just take that with them and they build on it and it's, it's really a shame.

Kyla Cofer: 13:27

Why do you think that is? And I'm just curious why there's such a significant difference between the sexes there. You know, because a lot of times we have some of the same roles, but we, we do experience them differently.

Ulrike Seminati: 13:38

I think it lies and, and also speaking with other experts who are doing that. I mean, there's no real proof around that. But many people think, and I, I joined them, think it's, it lies in the way how we were brought up. Small girls are often brought up with the expectations that they have to please. They have to look pretty. They are nice. They are cute. Yeah. All of the, they're not heroes. They're not superwoman when they are four years old. And yeah, so they're told these things that lead to the fact that we think we have to fit in. We, we have a high level of expectation because we were brought up with the idea, you have to be cute, nice, and pleasing all the time. And that's what we bring to work when we are 30, 40, 50, and 60 years old. If we have not worked on that, and I'm not aware how much this is driving our, our behavior because it's driving our thoughts, then we, we are constantly in this, I would say very narrow jacket of high expectations that we bring with us. And it's, it's really stressful to be in this jacket all the time. You can't breathe, literally. You can't who just, you know, bring to the table your whole energy, your real thought, your spontaneous ideas without overthinking. And, and I think it's, it's really coming from, from the very early years in our lives, from this conditioning that we have until we are eight years old, when the belief system is mostly constructed in our brain.

Kyla Cofer: 14:55

My four year old girl is currently playing in my house somewhere while we're having this conversation. So I'm thinking a little bit about, I'm like, okay, I'm glad for this reminder because these are things I knew, but am I really doing them, you know, as a parent? And I think that this is really important to talk about the difference the way in way men and women communicate and the way that we bring these skills to work because, We do operate differently and as perfectionistic people, pleasers as women tend to be, this can be really hard for women to lead the way, help make decisions to be in leadership positions. So can you speak to that a little bit and talk about how women can really empower themselves. This is not just for the women, this conversation, because part of this is men learning how to empower women to do that as well.

Ulrike Seminati: 15:44

Yeah, I recently had a talk with my own coach because I have a coach as well and he used the term, I like it a lot, your beautiful enemy. So these expectations that you carry with you that, that are stressing you from the inside. And men can have that too, obviously. So everybody who has this like. I am stressing myself out by myself because I, I have this, you have to re, you have to do it right. And when I don't do it right, I tell myself off and the next time I'm stressing, like, oh, you will be, again, not being good at this. And you know the stress with you. You can feel that those who have a feel it. I didn't know exactly what I'm talking about. So, Call it your beautiful enemy because at the end, this thing inside of you has brought you to where you are today. That's why it's beautiful. It is helping you to perform. This is why you are probably an high performer, an over performer even, because you have that, this is what probably built your career so far. But on the other side, it's an enemy in the sense that. You're not happy about what you're doing, you're never satisfied. You're telling yourself off. You give yourself a hard time. You're not relaxed. You don't, you don't go in with this full energy that you could have if you were relaxed. So it's a beautiful enemy, but seeing it like this is making you a bit more relaxed about it. First of all, you need to know this enemy. What is he or she, however you want to call it it. Yeah. Telling you. What voices do you hear? What is it telling you in different difficult situations, typical situations where you see repeatedly in this situation? I feel just like an imposture. I am totally stressed out. I'm really losing my means sometimes. What is going on in your mind in that moment? And that is your beautiful enemy telling you things to protect you. And so if you know more of this mechanism, what is going on in there? Then you can start managing it differently. And don't try to push it away. It's not working. It'll come back like a boomerang even stronger, but manage it like it. You take this thing with you,

Kyla Cofer: 17:37

it just doesn't leave you. It's just like your height. You're always the same height. Yeah, that just doesn't change. There are things about you that are always the same, that are always gonna be with you, and the more you just take ownership of them, then you own them, then you, you can own how they respond and how they react. Yeah. And you know that they're there so you know what to do with them. It makes a huge difference.

Ulrike Seminati: 17:56

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's being conscious about that. It's creating this level of awareness and with this, you can make a conscious decision how you want to manage that. You know, do you want to let this beautiful enemy take over all the time? Or do you say, okay, you come along with me anyway if I want it or not, so come with me. No problem. But I might ignore you. I might do things differently at specific movements, and that is fine. I go my own way. And you can chat in the background as much as you like. It doesn't change for me. Yeah.

Kyla Cofer: 18:25

How can if knowing that as women, that we, we do communicate differently and being aware that men communicate differently than women do. You know, just being aware that our upbringing and just as people we are just having coming from different perspectives and with different goals and different motivations, how can we find ways to really still push forward? Within that and not get so lost in the trying to figure it all out, trying to figure myself out, trying to figure out how to, to communicate the best. We still have decisions to make and we have to move ourselves forward in leadership roles. Where we're the person at the, for at the front, who's having to make those decisions, who's having to grow and build, and we're thinking about forward progress. How are we doing that? And not without holding ourselves back because of the way that we communicate. That was a lot.

Ulrike Seminati: 19:13

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Indeed. I think the best is to, to think about some inner motivator systems that we all have. You know, we have, our brain is wired in specific ways. Depending if you had ever done coaching or, or something like that. You might be aware of different personality styles that are out there, that are many, many different models out there. I'm working with Motivational drivers of the limbic brain, which are very intuitive because the limbic brain is basically our fight or flight mode, our intuitive brain of a very simple part of our brain, but super, super, super fast. Yeah. So it sends us immediately an emotion. It sends us, if somebody's friend or enemy, it sends us immediately if you trust or not, if you believe or not, what the other is saying. It's very intuitive, and then your rational mind might filter things out and evaluate. Things differently, but still there's this very intuitive reaction to things that we have and we have different inner wirings and men are often more in the dominant area of wiring. There's the dominance type. Yeah. Women are as well sometimes and or have many traits of that, but a bit less than men statistically. And it's, it's strong result orientation, for example, strong fact orientation. There's something about status, power, visibility, recognition, for example. It's very, Strong in this area. And if you are not in this one, if you feel like, well, I'm not really interested by power, status, visibility, or, or being acknowledged for, for, for my great achievements every day because it's not necessary for me. I, I think differently then you might think and immediately think about people who are in this area and there might be more men than women. I don't want to stereotype too much because there's always mixed types in both in both genders. This is where you can better understand why the other person has really different motivations around that, and it's not about judging them if they're good or bad. They are like they are yours are like they are. That's it. If you are not motivated by that, but the other is you will not change this other person and it's not your role. If you want to communicate better with this person, well think about what they want. Both way around. Somebody who thinks about status and visibility will never understand A, A person who is not interested by that, they can't even imagine. They can't imagine that. And the other way around is the same. You can't feel it. And that is what we are not doing in communication. We don't think really about the emotions which we create in others, or if we motivate them for something because like I said in the very beginning, we don't think about their profile. And don't make it complicated, really go for very basic drivers. Like I mentioned in the beginning as well, there's were these four drivers of the limbic brain without naming them in the beginning, but it's about, there's dominance. You have this status thing, which I just described, but then you have balance, which is about security, stability, being reliable, being detail oriented. You have stimulants, it's about creativity, innovation, thinking out of the box, but probably bit chaotic, not carrying things through to the end. So that's why a stimulants person is getting on the nerves of a dominance person sometimes, because they don't bring things to the end. They, they start something and then a week later they start another thing and another thing and another thing, they're great for innovation, but maybe not great for carrying a two year long project through, for example. And then you have harmony people who are very, very much into the human being and the connection between human being. Into empathy. They have a lot of empathy. They have so much empathy that they often suffer so much for other people that they run into burnout. I've seen that too. And if you don't care of these people in that sense, because you treat them like a dominance person, which is the exact opposite, it doesn't work. None of your messages will land. They will never feel understood. So think about who do you have in front of you and who are you, yourself, and how big is that gap? You know, how can you bridge it? And this is how then also when a, a woman who is really on, on the total other side, let's say, she's very much in the harmony area, very, very much into this empathy area. And there is a man in front of us who's really stereotyping. But that's the typical thing we have in mind. Yeah, A man is really on the dominance area. Status power oriented. They can't come along. They have no common ground actually in their discussion, so it's about addressing it. And you can even say, Hey, I know that your interest areas are not the same as mine, so we are coming really from two different sides. So you, you build a ground of common understanding if you start a conversation like that because you acknowledge that you're different. Most of the times we try to immediately be on the same page because it's what we try to do, find consensus in meetings at all price, but it doesn't work because we are all different. So just acknowledging, hey, You have a different motivation than I have. Maybe we can find a compromise. Maybe we can find some common ground. But if you acknowledge that you're coming from two different areas, it's a total different journey, a totally different discussion, which you can lead then, because then you can come into listening better into saying, Hey, I would like to really hear from you how you think about that, how you feel about that. A famous question, which you usually don't ask in business. How do you feel about that? Is it motivating? Is it boring? Is it annoying? Is it exciting? Whatever. I mean, if you don't ask, how do you know? So maybe we should just ask more about how people feel about certain things instead of just asking for facts and pushing them into some actions which they don't do or don't deliver on time.

Kyla Cofer: 24:35

So I really love this. We talk about this so much here at Leadership School. It's about pausing. It's about this pause of who are we in this room? Let's step back, actually get to know each other. Not to the point where like, I mean, I believe in boundaries at work, so it's not like I'm getting to know my coworkers because I want to invade their lives. But it's the getting to know your personality and your, your styles in an enough of a way that we can work together towards common missions. And taking the time to step back and really do that. It's so funny cuz we think that like, well, if I take time to do this, then I'm taking time away from all the work that has to be done and then I have 700 emails that I have to answer. Those are gonna be there regardless. Like you've gotta do that, but I guarantee you're gonna get through them a lot faster if you have a team around you that can work together because we know how each other. Thinks and the way that we respond and the way that we speak. And cuz communication isn't just about the words. It's like you just said, it's like about our feelings, it's about our emotions, and it's about everything of who we are that we bring to the table.

Ulrike Seminati: 25:39

Yeah, absolutely. And this is what many people don't understand or don't want to invest two days think. It's, it's a time investment. It's, it's really difficult. Or if I have to do this, but if you have done it once, if you have to set this ground for your team and for yourself, you have a totally different conversation. And things run smoother. You will see, you will have maybe not 700 emails anymore than only 500 or 400 over time because things get simpler. Definitely you have less conflict, less misunderstandings, less reminder. Emails stand far, far, far less reminder emails, yeah. Because you had a good conversation where everybody understood it with their heart, not only with their head, but also with their heart. They were buying in as a full person. It's a totally different story and it takes time to build this this way of communicating as a team. But this is what leads to the famous high performing teams that everybody wants to have.

Kyla Cofer: 26:31

So I started this podcast because I wanted to learn and grow in my leadership journey, and I have been so incredibly inspired by the guests and the conversations. So once the interview ends, I actually keep the conversation going because I have found that sometimes the richest part of the conversation is when we feel like the interview's over and we can just kind of have a relaxed, more casual conversation. Also, if you've noticed, if you've been following this podcast for some time, I used to ask every guest two questions. What does integrity mean to them and what does balance look like to them? Well, I haven't stopped asking those questions. We're just putting those over on our Patreon page, so go check it out at patreon.com/leadership school, and for $6 and 50 cents a month, you can support this podcast. It takes a lot to produce every single episode and. Honestly, I could use a little bit of support. So anything that you're able to contribute would really mean a lot to me and would able to help me to continue to bring these high caliber guests in to have conversations on what does it look like to be an extraordinary leader, and how do we practically do that. So those conversations are continuing over at patreon.com/leadership school where I'm asking guests some extra questions, some bonus questions, and you'll get some bonus content over there. So be sure to go check it out. Thanks so much for your support and thanks for so much for subscribing, listening and sharing this podcast. It really does mean a lot, and I'm so honored to show up here in your podcast feed. Yeah, so story time. Then Eureka. Tell us some stories of when you've seen people do this, take the step back and how it has changed. I mean, you've given some kind of general examples of how that will change you, but how have you seen this really make an impact in the work that you've done?

Ulrike Seminati: 28:20

So in the details, I, like I say, I would just pick out really simple situations of leaders who are, who are applying this. There was one leader, for example, he was struggling for ages already with two team members who could not really collaborate, but they had to collaborate and he never understood it. He told them, I obviously many times that they have to collaborate. Yeah. It goes into one ear and out on the other. I mean, it's like they say, yeah, fine, but. The other guy is, he's stupid. I don't come along with him. Anyway, so, and this is where they were parked at, let's say, for a while. And obviously this had consequences for the rest of the team, the mood in the team. It was slowing down processes and, and decision making and all of that. And then he learned how to apply these four different dimensions of motivators and. I helped them mapping out their team and really understanding these, those mixed types obviously, but they're the big lines intuitively, you know, who in your team is going towards which direction for at least 80% of your team. People know intuitively, and for the others, well they have maybe to ask just a few questions to find out more. And he realized that, yeah, they really, there are two opposite ends and so. I told him you have to have a discussion first with one, to understand the motivators. What, what's interesting in this project, how he feels about things. Really asking for the emotions that he expressed them in a way that they named them at least. Yeah. They say what they, what they feel, and you ask the other person. And by this you also really sharpen a bit the profiles that you have in mind for both. And then you prepare a meeting with both and you know who is, who is motivated by what, and you just sit there and you say it in front of them and you say, I know this is the project we have to do. We are working on it for a year. I know that for you, it's super stressful that we change direction every four weeks because you hate that, because you love to be in a stable process because you're such a reliable person. Say something positive, yeah. That you can deliver. Right. So it's not like you're the boring guy who hates change. That's not good. No. You say you, you're, because it's true. You are a reliable person and for you, it's stressful when we change things and the other person, I know that you love that things are very dynamic in this company, but on the other hand, it's very stressful for the first person that sometimes you promise things and then you don't even remember it. Or you say you will do it and then you don't, and then so you have these, just having that conversation. So he was setting up, I don't remember what exactly was, example, what I'm giving, but this kind of two types he had in his team. So he was mediating discussion between them. By like introducing them to each other with their profile without naming it like this, but with, and they felt that has huge effect, has many effects because then they felt like, oh my, my leader knows me, acknowledges me for who I am as a human being. So they feel valued because you're not just coming up with, you are the accountant and the other one is the project manager. So you are human with these emotions. You are human with other emotions. So, and I felt recognized first of all. And then there was this, this effect obviously, that they suddenly said it was really like switching the light on because they suddenly realized why exactly the other person is never understanding or doing what they're saying and that it is just like that and that both are complimentary at the end. If they make the best out of it, instead of being, enemies is a big word, but not collaborating simply. And he said it's, it's incredible. But because today they really work together because that creates a level of respect because you are, you see, I'm respected as I am because the leader introduced. You like that ev both feel that. Even if they're totally different. And I think this creates the famous diversity in this richness. And he said it's, it's amazing. I use it now in all the conflicts that I have. I just really think about who is there, why do they most likely have that conflict? And you don't need to be a psychologist to intuitively understand what's going on. And he said, is, is really easy, easy to mediate. Suddenly these discussions, because I just help them to understand a little bit better who they are by simple words. And you create this mutual respect and an openness for having different perspectives around the table and creating something out of that and finding this compromise. Somewhere in the middle, it meets somewhere in the middle with new ways of working and more tolerance for each other's strengths and weaknesses.

Kyla Cofer: 32:41

You mentioned the word diversity and, and this is why diversity is so important, because if we do have people who operate the same and think the same way on projects, then the other things are gonna get missed, right? So when you've got these two people with different perspectives, they're seeing the whole picture of everything that needs to happen on the project. It's a lot of respect. Understand and respect that the other person just sees the world differently. Their brain is wired differently. We are all are looking at the world from our own perspectives, and when we can understand that, then we have a really, you get the whole picture of the world. I'm literally thinking in my mind right now, the globe. Like if one person, if you have this globe and one person standing on one side, one person's standing on the other side, one's gonna see the United States, another one's gonna see Asia and it's gonna look different. But, but with both perspectives you get the whole picture. Things don't get left

Ulrike Seminati: 33:28

out. Yeah, exactly. In, in all organizations, you have a specific culture, a way of being. It's very hard to describe usually, but people feel that. They feel when they're not like they should be. And that is the whole problem that I think organizations and the senior leaders, I mean it starts from the top, obviously have to really open up for this. Yeah. For saying, Hey, if we want to have true diversity, we really need to allow for that. We need to promote people who have a profile that is very unusual. Or a character, let's say a personality style that we usually do not have in this position. And we need to invest the time to help this person with this personality profile to thrive in this position. Because if you put a harmony person Yeah, who is really about empathy a lot into a leadership role, they will struggle a lot. They can be absolutely fantastic leaders, but for them in the first place, it's a huge stress. Cause suddenly if you're a leader, you're like isolated. And that is the worst thing for them to happen. So you need to help them through that process and give them this, this vision that in this role, they can even achieve more on the human side they could ever achieve as a simple team member. But you need to help people with that profile to become the best leaders they can be. And if they're introverts, because they're stability focused people. You have to help them in another way. So it's really about understanding that and promoting this actively and then we could have real diversity in organizations.

Kyla Cofer: 34:54

It's so interesting how you're taking just a few little moments. The story you mentioned that man had really like one conversation and in one conversation made a huge significant difference. And in just these little moments and these paying attention, we are creating. Safe workplaces, not toxic ones. Mm-hmm. Because when you don't do that, that's what you create is a toxic workplace where no one feels safe to express their own thoughts, feelings, or emotions. And people don't wanna be there if they don't stick around. They're just trying to survive and get the job done, and who's ever committed to an actual project. Right. When you really wanna do that, they don't care about the project, they just care about getting through the day. Right. But when you do this, yeah. People become excited about it and excited about working together because they see it's like, The problem has been solved. Right Now we can focus on other problems. Yeah, exactly. For actual work that needs to be done.

Ulrike Seminati: 35:46

Yeah. I always compare that as well with a map. What we do in organizations, we give the final destination. Yeah. Imagine you have Google Maps making a bit of advertising for Google. However, a GPS system or something, when you're put into a G P S system, you need to put into your final destination where you want to go. That's obvious. So that's the company goal in this metaphor. Yeah. So company goal, equal final destination. But what we do in a GPS automatically, because if not, we cannot get any plan from the GPS, we put in also the point of departure. Logical, yeah. But in organizations, we never give people the point of departure because we think they should all have the same, but they don't because they're different people. So, If you tell them, this is the goal for this organization, or these are the values that you have to embrace, or these are new leadership behaviors, which you will learn now in a two day training. Forget about this. I have seen that. I don't know how many times. It never works. It never works. Why? Because people don't know their own values. Or they don't know their own leadership, or they don't know their own intrinsic motivators for company goals or how they can connect to a part of that company goal because it's an illusion that automatically every human being will connect to this goal from the heart. Where should they? They don't, I mean really, and you need to give them the possibility they need to learn, you know, to to learn. How can I think about a company goal differently from my own motivators? So if I'm a person who loves to have visibility and I'm really aware of that, and this is important for me, maybe I can create something throughout that process where I get more of that when I help contributing to this goal. If I'm a creative person, maybe I can ask somehow for more space where I can be creative for the whole duration and not just for the first day of brainstorming or so. So it's about where are you coming from and understanding that then you can motivate yourself and embrace these goals well,

Kyla Cofer: 37:37

and then it's really giving yourself the power back of your own power and boundaries and your own roles. Because I think a lot of times we give those to our employer, we like get a job and we think that that's our job. And then we just have to do what we're told or we just have to promote this company and this organization or whatever, and we end up giving some of ourselves over. But when you do it this way, in the way that you're communicating is. You're, you're back in control of who you are and your own job and your own role and your own responsibilities. And that can also help you know, whether you're gonna stay or go in a company too, right? Like if the company's gonna allow you to do that or not allow you to do that. And, and if you're the only one making those kinds of efforts, that can be really exhausting. But if everybody's making that effort together, then you're really going to thrive as a whole.

Ulrike Seminati: 38:25

Yeah, and there's much more honesty in the whole approach then, because now obviously people to please their hierarchy, they will say, yeah, I'm motivated. Ah, what an exciting goal. Or, oh, I love our values. It is stupid. It's not true. It's not true. So I always say, Values is a very easy example to understand easier than the goals. It's a bit more difficult with the goals, but value is very simple. Let's say the company is four values, typical thing, and you want all people to buy in all four values. This, this is not working, but it would be far better if you say, okay. What are your own? Help them to find their own values because that's their point of departure. If they don't know them, how can they buy in other values? They will do it somehow, but not really, and they don't even know what they're doing and why they're thinking what they're thinking. So help them to find their own values. And if they then can connect genuinely two of these four values, but really honestly from the inside and they can convince, be convinced about these two values and the others, maybe they are not. Well, that's far better than having four half cooked buy-ins, for four values. Because that's not creating any energy. But if you have people who say, Hey, value one and value two, I can really embrace that because that's very much in line with what I feel about my own value system. Well, I can really role model these and I'm happy to do that Fullheartedly. And that's how you can build a culture and still you have diversity because not all are the same. Not all will embrace all four or the same too. It's diverse. And I think this is what organizations don't understand, that you have to give this freedom to people to also say, Hey, one of these values is just really not mine. It's, it's not for me. But I'm role modeling perfectly under two others, for example, and giving them this freedom to choose to choose their own motivation and their own sense of belonging because it's another package for every single employee.

Kyla Cofer: 40:17

I have literally seen companies fall apart because they have not done this, and they have focused on the company values and trying to get everybody on board, and the leadership not being able to communicate well get along and everybody approaches it differently, and it was just a mess and it, mm-hmm. It just disintegrated.

Ulrike Seminati: 40:39

Yeah. Yeah. I haven't seen disintegrating companies, but I have seen senior management teams losing totally their credibility with these kind of campaigns. They think, oh, it's nice. Let's introduce some values. And then they don't live it first place because they have never really embraced them. They have never made that work. How do I connect actually personally to these values? So they cannot send any convincing message out to their teams when they speak about it. There's no credibility. And I've seen the values exercise that is always there to create more sense of belonging and trust, doing the exact opposite cause of that. And I really warn companies when they say, oh, let's do that. Like in No, like if, if it's an easy exercise, not No, it's, it's seriously high. It's a high risk exercise because if you don't do it like you can do it and you do it in a way that it's just becoming this kind of, Alibi thing, then it's highly risky. You will lose trust. You will just destroy whatever trust you have at the moment in your organizations with just this thing. Yeah. There's really just things to put to take into consideration with it and, and start finally to see that you're not managing roles, you're managing human beings, and they are all different. Dot I mean, that's the, that's the core.

Kyla Cofer: 41:51

100%. You are managing human beings and, the very core, that's exactly what we do at leadership school. Like that's what leaders do. You're leading people. You're not just putting yourself in a position of power. You are leading people. And we have to always remember that. Ulrike, I just have one last question for you and then I, I mean, I do have other questions for you, but we're gonna save those for Patreon, so we'll save those for the end of our conversation. But I do have one question for, for this conversation, and that is, what do you wish you would have known when you first started out?

Ulrike Seminati: 42:26

I would've wished that I would've known myself better. So really thinking about your question, but it all starts from there, and I was like, Really just running from one position to the next, trying to having the next challenge, managing the next challenge, never being satisfied about myself, never really knowing why I'm actually doing all of that, until I reached this very high level, this top level where it was like big feeling of emptiness then, because even though I had reached a thing on paper, I thought, but for what? And who am I actually in this whole game? So I would've wished that I had the self-reflective way of being that I have today already early on in my career. It would've changed so many things. I certainly would've made my career in a different way. It's not about success in terms of hierarchy or money. It's really about how you, how you celebrate your successes, how you make your decisions for your next role, how you make your decisions within your role at every single day. I mean, I remember so many moments where I was stressed out like mad because of my own expectation levels and all of that, and it's so useless. It's totally useless, and I would've loved to know that because I spent like 23 odd years in this mindset. That's really crazy. So I really want people to not do that. So please, if you're like 30 years old, start, start now. Avoid yourself. This, I mean, really, you, you can avoid a lot of pain.

Kyla Cofer: 43:56

Oh, sometimes I do. I wish that I could have gone back to childhood with everything that I know now, but you know, it's also been fun to learn it right. It has been fun to grow and learn and to be able to look back and then take what we've learned and be able to help people who are figuring it out still and, and that's kind of why we do this. Is there anything else you want to tell our audience before we go?

Ulrike Seminati: 44:17

Well, that they can find me, maybe could be a good thing. Yes. Well, you can find me under my complicated name, Ulrike Seminati on LinkedIn. My website has the same name. It's the.com. And you can also just book a half hour call with me to find out what we can do together for yourself, for your teams, for whatever. And I am doing at the moment, a new keynote, so I'm happy to provide this pro bono for the moment to test it out. And it's called how you Close the Gap between knowing and doing. And it's all about finding out what is in the middle of this that we have to generate so that we finally stop procrastinating and just do the things of which we know. That these are the actions we should take to achieve a specific result.

Kyla Cofer: 45:01

Oh, that sounds awesome. Well, I can't wait to hear that keynote and all of your contact information is in our show notes so people can follow up with you and get to know you. And we really appreciate your time and thank you so much for joining me. I have just really enjoyed our conversation and learning from you.

Ulrike Seminati: 45:14

Thank you, Kyla. I love it too.

Kyla Cofer: 45:18

Hey, thank you so much for listening. If you've liked what you heard and you want some more tools and resources to help you on your journey, go check out kyla cofer.com/free stuff.